YouTube Channel: "Theories of Everything with Curt Jaimungal" Video Title: "Luis Elizondo: Whistleblowers, Physics, Time [PART 3!]" Luis Elizondo: Whistleblowers, Physics, Time [PART 3!] 325,774 views Premiered Mar 14, 2022 Lue Elizondo joins us for the third time, along with Sean Cahill to discuss UFOs and reality. From: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9g5e9UzEDkw Transcript: Introduction This is the third interview with Lue Elizondo outmatching even the previous as his longest interview ever this time We're joined with Sean Cahill. Lue Elizondo is a former US Army counterintelligence special agent Mostly known as the director of the now defunct a tip which was a program initiated by the Defense Intelligence Agency in order to study the UAP phenomenon also known as UFOs Chief Sean Cahill served in the United States Navy from 1995 to 2015 with missions spanning from anti-terrorism to anti-piracy to interrogations and investigations He's a co-founder and strategic advisor at Sky Fort dot org. That is SKYFORT.org, which is a think-tank and tech incubator working on UAP studies Click on the timestamp in the description if you'd like to skip this intro. My name is Curt Jaimungal I'm a Torontonian filmmaker with a background in mathematical physics Interested in explicating the variegated terrain of theories of everything from mainly a theoretical physics perspective But as well as understanding the role consciousness has to fundamental reality The plan is for this podcast sometime this year to lead somewhere perhaps even earlier starting with ideas in gauge theory Which begin in ideas in Lie group theory and build up to the infinite categorical approaches to physics like infinite Categories and modal homotopy type theories as well and even geometric algebra the reason being that the physical theories of everything and the language to understand them and the Unification attempts are more elegantly written and understood from those perspectives at least to some people outside of the universities There are no accessible texts on this let alone media content so hopefully the TOE podcast will serve as a stanchion supporting the quest for understanding the Mathematical fundamental principles if you enjoy witnessing and engaging with others in real time on the topics of consciousness Psychology physics and mathematics then check out the description for a link to the discord and subreddit there's also a link to the patreon which is patreon.com slash Curt Jaimungal if you'd like to support this podcast as support from the patrons and the sponsors are the only reasons that I can bring podcasts of this quality and depth as This is now what I'm able to do full-time. Thanks to your support Speaking of sponsors There are three the first sponsor is that UFO podcast that UFO podcast is one of the world's premier Destinations for everything related to the subject of UFOs and related phenomenon created in May 2020 by Scottish host Andy McGrillin The show has hosted many of the largest names in the UFO community Including Lue Elizondo Avi Loeb and George Knapp plus many many more in addition to interviews regular co-host Dan Zetterstrom Joins Andy for weekly news breakdowns bringing you the latest UFO news in a concise and easy to digest Format the discursive style of dialogue is such that it's both entertaining and informative In fact, Dan and Andy are two people I regularly confer with when I don't understand the history of some particular UFO related event or for general Explanations of what people like Lue have said about the phenomenon They also helped call and order the list of questions for this episode So adulation should be directed toward them The links to that UFO podcast are in the description or you can simply search quote-unquote that UFO podcast The second sponsor is ground news If you're someone like myself who's ever exposed to the unrelenting onslaught of digital media You've become increasingly skeptical of the veracity of the information you're receiving Particularly with regard to balance and that's where ground news comes in for every breaking news story They'll show you which media outlets are reporting on the issue and where they fall on the political spectrum You can instantly spot media bias discover stories outside your own perhaps unrecognized echo chamber and attain some clarity Especially in these chaotic times the ground news website and app lets you compare headlines from left center and right sources Simply with a swipe and their blind spot feed will show you stories that are not being reported by one side of the political spectrum Subscribers also gain access to features like my news bias which lets you track your reading habits So you can see how factual your sources are who owns them and much more ground news isn't better news It's an improved manner of the consumption of news Download the ground news app or browser extension to make sure that you're seeing the full picture visit www.ground.news slash TOE to demand more from your news now on to the third and last sponsor urgent care calm urgent care calm is a forward-thinking healthcare company that understands while we all do share the same biology our Personal needs and requirements are uniquely our own Urgent care calm has an appreciation and respect and gratitude for any individual or entity that seeks to help the human species Without question Lue Elizondo and Sean Cahill all deserve Thanks for helping humanity answer some of life's most important and challenging questions that statement comes from urgent care Themselves and I agree with it visit urgent care calm for convenient health care for everyone Thank you and enjoy this lengthy engrossing and revelatory ask me anything session with Luis Elizondo and Sean Cahill Okay, it says that we're live. Now if you can see this, please type into the chat Charizard is not overhyped Charizard is not overhyped All right, there we go Okay, thank you Sean, thank you Lue, I appreciate it and You know me I like to be efficient and make a great use of our time and the audience's as well So we'll get straight to the questions Element 115 This one is directed to both of you and we'll start with Lue Lue while you were in the government And then there's Sean while you're in the government. Have you ever come across the words Element 115? Did you see it? Did you read it? Did you overhear someone allude to it? So first of all Curt How you doing? You doing good? Good great everybody out there in in the social media world Thank you very much for having having me and spending today's afternoon with me Don't I mean don't get me wrong. I don't mind kissing on the first date Curt, but just wanted to first say Thank you for having us on here and to your audience for having us Too very quick. Today is a bit of a special day for me. My my daughter Taylor is getting married. She's over in California getting married to her fiance Joe and he's over in Monterey right now at the Defense Language Institute learning a language and Serving our country. So a huge shout out if I made to to him. Thank you for Joe for your service to our nation we are eternally grateful and Taylor and Joe congratulations Congratulations Yep. Nope. Nope Appreciate it and Curt you're looking mighty spiffy today. So just for you man So we and Sean we break the ice a little bit and Sean Thank you for for always your your friendship and and you know being being with me It's profoundly appreciated and one last big thanks to all the folks out there who continue to to support This effort moving forward There's a lot of folks in the UK that are trying to to do what we've done here in the United States So a big shout out to them and finally a big shout out to to all of you in the audience Thank you so very much for being here with us It is truly an honor and privilege now now that we've got that out of the way Curt Let's answer your question about Element 115 No There's obviously a lot of discussion about it in the Twitter verse and social media But that was never a part of the the the a tip portfolio Doesn't mean it wasn't part of portfolios beforehand or perhaps, you know Some other efforts that were parallel or tangential to a tip But while I was an a tip element 115 wasn't ever really part of any type of discussion Sean I never know I never encountered anything like that. I wouldn't have even if it were purportedly Anything like what it's supposed to be. I've only heard about it in the Zeitgeist of ufology from the same sources Do you all have any reason to believe that UAPs? And or what may be behind them may intervene at some point to prevent nuclear holocaust or some large iniquity. For example with Russia. I Personally don't have any evidence of that we've we have a great deal of evidence that they didn't Stop the testing of the first device the use of it twice and the subsequent testing by numerous nations on the earth during that Any evidence that UFOs will intervene to stop nuclear iniquities? Period of time so I don't see why they would intervene. Otherwise, I don't have any evidence to point towards any kind of motive I can't even identify Who's behind the craft so getting to their motives would be a very hard very much longer stretch Yeah, I'll go I'll go even even a little more pointed than that. Look they did nothing. They didn't interfere with Chernobyl They didn't interfere with Fukushima. They didn't interfere with the vaporization of 500,000 people during World War two Hiroshima Nagasaki They didn't interfere during the Cuban Missile Crisis. They didn't appear Right now in the Ukraine. So so the question is is there any evidence to substantiate that they're here to stop mankind from from Hurting ourselves. Well, they haven't stopped Kovac. They haven't stopped climate change They haven't stopped World War two Korean War or anything else and they haven't stopped world hunger. So You know, I it'd be nice if that was a case, but I haven't seen any evidence to suggest that What I have seen is evidence to suggest of some sort of ISR intelligence surveillance reconnaissance of our nuclear equities and technology that we have See, we've been able to substantiate that and the ability to interfere with it. But the question is are they interfering it for good? Well right now there's no information to indicate that at least not from my my perspective Do you have any idea what this cataclysm is that people like Ross Coulthard refer to and if you do has it been? Is it impending has it been averted? I? Think I understand What Ross is talking about? I've spoken to Ross at length privately there's I know what Ross is talking about from the side of Of the coin where I where I work and where I'm interested in this subject I have no connection to it whatsoever other than as I often say the pop site Geist ufology Imminent cataclysm? now that's not to say that I haven't studied some of the same things that that Ross has and other people like Grant Cameron and others that there is a cyclical nature to to life on earth that there are changes evident in the fossil record and in sedimentary records and things like that so there may be a great deal of conflation going on here between what we call the entertainment aspect of the ufology and the need to Invigorate a subject and keep people interested in it vice the actual nuts and bolts again and the reality of it Species have gone extinct before there's no reason to expect that we won't go extinct someday So when people talk about cataclysms, I think it's important that we don't conflate them with With pop ufology. I'd like to leave that to the geologists and to the climatologists and the other people who are Making that their specific focus I you know, I could I I'm not sure it's precisely what you're referring to I mean cataclysms have always been been part of of human evolution You know, in fact one could argue we've always been on the verge of a cataclysm at any moment our species There have been been historical anecdotes whether it's Nostradamus or the Mayan calendar or even the Bible or the Bible Gita or anything else you know Cataclysm Armageddon, whatever has always been part of The human Storytelling and for good reason because you do have these these moments in time where where things change so dramatically case in point one could probably point to to The last ice age where where when when the earth was thawing out of the ice age I was a major moment and caused a lot of species that you know to to disappear because because environments change The land bridge when that was no longer crossable you isolated certain genetic species from from intermingling with each other You know It's it's always been part of who we are and always part of earth because earth changes, right? look at the dinosaurs right and and that was a hell of a cataclysm right when you had You had a meteor come down and wipe out 90% of animals on this planet That's just reality. That's not you know, I'm not sure that's necessarily something we all need to Look at and say oh, you know that's coming. We've always been Immersed in that again. You can look throughout history and see where mankind in almost every religious text There is some sort of reference to some sort of cataclysmic event or that has had occurred or will occur whether it's the flooding stories of the earth and the 40 days of rain or other you know pick your pick your story right that we have always been telling ourselves and The things continue to happen World War three just another example, right? nuclear war It's always it's always right around the corner and for good reason because you have a lot of things Operating in nature that aren't necessarily in favor for a species survival And so you have to adapt if you want to survive whether that's climate or or because of things we do to each other That's just the reality of life. So I'm not aware of any particular cataclysm Story you're maybe referring to because frankly, you know pick your story du jour there. It's There's a lot of stories Let me be a bit more specific So Ross was referring to a cataclysm as one of the reasons for why the aliens I don't know if they should be called aliens, but those from the future may come back into the past. I Don't know I I really like Ross III I think he is a deep thinker Our future selves and time travel I Really enjoy talking to him actually even about these subjects and and throwing conjecture against the wall But I find myself Having a really hard time saying what are we timing not to not to play games? But what are we talking about here? Because if we're talking about climatology or if we're talking about As we said sedimentary record and other things like that of what has happened before We're throwing in aliens that we can't prove We're throwing in a historical record that's spotty. I agree that some of these things, when placed on the table together, make a certain amount of sense, but I can't say that the things we're placing on the table make sense by themselves. And so there's a great deal of conflation going on. And I don't want to say that anyone's using their imagination too much, but I think that it would just be my opinion about a lot of fiction and conjecture that I've taken in over the years, which doesn't really apply in any way, shape, or form to the work I'm doing right now. So it's imaginative, and I think it's interesting, but again, I couldn't get there as an investigator because I'm making, to an extent, making up one of the suspects, and I'm assuming a story of one of the complainants to arrive to say that a crime has occurred. It's the fruits of the poisonous tree. So if we had a show about conjecture and we wanted to really dig into that, we can get Graham Hancock or another expert, maybe from one of the ancient architect channels or something like that. I think we could have a really interesting conversation, but it doesn't apply other than to my opinion. Sure, I'll go also. I'll add, my concern is right now, let's just say, hypothetically, we as a species right now, we have the ability to go back in time. My concern is the whole paradox issue. There's a saying, if I go back and I kill my grandfather, well, then I don't exist. And so therefore I couldn't go back in time to kill my grandfather. So there's a paradox issue here. And if there is a species that is for some reason, or us, let's say, coming back from a future, and I don't wanna say the future because we don't know if there is the, or perhaps a, or multiple. The bottom line is that if you come back and interfere with the past, you may very well inadvertently affect your ability to exist in the future and change things irrevocably. And in fact, you may change things for the worst, not the better. So, I think it's certainly interesting to speculate, but I think that's why it's tough for us to conceive about going backwards in time. I think we can slow, I mean, enough relativity, time can be slowed down and it can be potentially even stopped to some degree, but to go backwards is a little bit different. You're asking the river to run backwards and you can slow it, you can dam it up, but to have a river go backwards, it's a little more tough than that. And so therein lies the conundrum. If you go, the mere fact that you go back in time, let's say hypothetically to your time period, which is what would matter if you went back in time, you wouldn't wanna go back to some other, other parallel universes time because you're not gonna affect your own paradigm. So, you have to take it with a grain of salt. And I'm not sure that, I'm not sure we would wanna do that because of the risk you would have to, and then you have the question about matter in the universe, right? So, if I take matter from the future and the universe has only X amount of matter, X amount of energy, and energy can't be created or destroyed, now I add more matter, how does that affect the rest as a perturb the existing model of the universe by the mere fact you're introducing more matter into a universe that only has X matter? And how does that occur? And now does that initiate another potential big bang? These are the questions you have to ask yourself seriously whenever you're providing a theory about time travel. Again, it's like Sean said, it's fun to speculate, but there's a lot more considerations that one has to consider if that was really possible and would you really wanna do it. Quick editors quiddity here, for those interested in the details, a positive cosmological constant allows for the creation of energy and energy seems to only locally be conserved, not globally. I think we can all take the scene from one of the Avengers movies, I think it was Endgame, where they ran through all the different time travel movies and they were trying to explain, yo, they're all wrong, they're getting it wrong. And they started talking about real physics and the possibility of alternate realities and alternate dimensions and things like that. But we have to ask ourselves again, if we don't have any personal perception of that, if we can't detect it, again, assigning motive is very much just opinion weeding. I don't even know if I have a time machine or if there's an alien, what his motive is, what he wants. And agreed with Lue, again, what are even the mechanics of operating something like, I don't know, it's far beyond my ken. And just so you know, Lue, you mentioned at one point that the present is thick, for lack of a better word, cigarette burning as the analogy. And for people who are interested in a more mathematical treatment of that, I spoke to someone named Nicholas Gissen who gave a formalism to indicate that the present time is thick, that you can't pick out a particular point, that as soon as you do, it's almost like honey. So if you're interested in that, I'll put a link in the description. "Thick time" and Nicolas Gisin / The present moment Yeah, no, and we see that very practically in the world of quantum physics and even the expression or the description of an electron. Again, for your audience, who's probably my age remembers in high school, you learned that an electron orbits the nucleus of an atom, but in reality, that's not what's occurring. We now realize it's called an electron cloud for a reason because of predictability. And the fact that the electron can never be isolated in a fixed position, you can't do it. And in fact, some scientists now are speculating that is because the electron is everywhere and nowhere at the same time. It is so small that it may literally be zipping in and out through the very fabric of space time. And so it's nonsensical to try to predict the position of an electron because there is no position. It's everywhere and nowhere at the same time around the nucleus of an atom. And that's some of the observations we're beginning to see now. And let me add to that, that the past and the future are human semantic constructs. It is always now. It always has been now from the universe's perspective. The past is not something that's sitting next door to us. So, and another way people think of things, and we think when we say that the stars are very far away, the light took a very long time to travel to us, we're seeing the past. Again, that's a metaphor. We're not seeing the past, we're seeing now. And now is those photons are here hitting your eyes where at one point they were not. And so these are arbitrary concepts a lot of times. So we've applied a linear understanding to something that exists on a much deeper, much deeper spec in a lot of ways. When we talk about going past, going future. And I think a lot of what Lue's talking about is that reality is anchored in now and in the present and in the entropic state that we exist in at this moment. And so there's so many variables to that and we're jumping to motive. I think that's something we just have to keep in mind. Yeah, I'll go even a step further, Curt, too, with a kind of piggybacking off of what Sean said. The whole notion of here and now is almost nonsensical. Let me give an example. Let me ask you, Curt, where are you right now? Let's do a little quick exercise for you and your audience. Where are you right now, Curt? Let's say Toronto, Canada. Okay, where's Toronto? Where's Toronto? I don't know how to answer that. Okay, well, where's Canada? Where's North America? Where's Earth? Yeah, right. Right, and where's our solar system? Where's our Milky Way? There is no here here, okay? We invent here because we have to live in an environment where we are used to boundaries and borders in order for things to make sense. But in reality, in the big scale of things, in the scale of the universe, the notion of here and now is really nonsensical because that depends on where I am relative to everything else. Here and now only exists. Go ahead, Sean, sorry. It's like trying to pick out a specific electron from the electron cloud. It's, yeah, it's, everything is moving so dynamically at all times that a location is not a concept either. It's only a location in a certain regional area. And you have to have some kind of substrate to measure that against. And we live in a universe that lacks a substrate. There's no SNAP2 grid that we can say, we're now 14 parsecs Northeast to local globular cluster North. What's that mean? How would you navigate to that? That's something that really digs into my head. How would we navigate to a point in the past? You have to figure out its location in space time. We haven't found space time yet to be a thing to measure in that way. And in fact, if you look at the theory of inflation of the universe during the big bang, early parts of the big bang, and even now as the expansion of the universe continues to get bigger and faster, scientists are now stating that space itself, space time itself is being created. And that's how you have this expansion of the universe occurring faster and faster and faster. And that's, when you look at that case in point, let me see if I can bring this to a little bit easier to understand. The universe has been estimated to be almost not quite 14 billion years old, right? And yet when you ask the scientists, how big is our visible universe from end to end, they say it's about 94 billion light years across. Well, how can that be? Because that means the universe has to be expanding faster than the speed of light. Well, not necessarily. What's happening in theory is that actual space time itself is expanding as well. Think of probably the best way to explain it would be, imagine water seeping up from the bottom of the bathtub and filling up the bathtub. It's filling up from all sorts of little pores, water's coming out everywhere, not just out of the spigot, but everywhere and starting to fill up the tub. If that is the case, then again, the notion back to where we are in the universe is always changing. When you say to yourself, and it's a little bit scary to do, but you say, I'll be here tomorrow. No, you won't. You will never be here again. And you can't, it's impossible because the entire universe isn't static, it's moving. And the only way to know where you are is only relative to other people and where they are. And by the way, they're just as lost as we are. And I don't mean that just figuratively, I mean that physically. We are all kind of scattered through the winds together and the only way we can kind of relate to each other is, oh, you're kind of close to me. So I guess relative, you're six foot and I'm five foot, nine, and we gauge things relative to each other, but we really have no idea where we really are or even when we are. And that's something to ponder perhaps. We invented time so we know when to meet for lunch tomorrow, but in reality, we just observe entropy. There's a lot of... Please. It's okay, I just like to bring things down to a mathematical level for some of the people who are more interested. So the relational view that Lue outlined, you can read more about it in a relational view of quantum mechanics by Carlo Rovelli. And then this arbitrariness of setting one's location when Lue was asking me where's Toronto and it's in Canada and then where's earth and so on, that is called general covariance. And that's where the principle of, Why the secrecy? Is it because of the private sector or government? well, that's where general relativity comes out from. So if you want to learn more for those who are interested in mathematical details, that's what you can look up. Okay, now I'm curious about the reason for secrecy behind this whole UAP phenomenon. And I'm curious, do you believe that it's profit driven primarily or that it's a profit driven by the private sector or profit driven by the governmental sector or that it's altruistically motivated like Tom DeLong may espouse or Tom DeLong believes? Are we talking, can you identify what exactly are we asking about? What is the... There's much that is covered up about the UAP. The reason for secrecy, you're asking about what is, you're asking my opinion on the reason. It's my opinion, just by looking at the simple record that we can distill that made front page news that did get reported, that wasn't completely redacted. I think we see a great deal of shock and confusion. And if we're to assume that some of what we all assume about crashes and bodies and things like that, if that occurred, we're still debating what that would do to our religions, our society, our culture, our stock market, all of those things. We still debate that to today with a pretty split constituency of who believes that we're ready and who believes that we're not. And I think we can see a natural progression of not understanding something, wanting to understand it before they made it public, but then human nature probably, I can imagine took over. And so power mongering, greed, idea mongering, thought, if that makes sense, wanting to keep important ideas to yourself, I can see that that would have happened already, but I still think that the government that I, the military that I worked in and the government that I operated in and around was made of just regular folks like us. And this is an incredibly daunting subject. And so I can see where it would have continually been kicked down the road. Now that's just my opinion, just from looking at what's in the public record. What do you mean by that? It would have been continually kicked down the road. No, I've never met anyone who wants to take responsibility for this. And it's one of the things that made Lue very interesting. A few years ago when he appeared was that he was, he had the courage to do it and he wasn't doing it in the same way everybody else did it. And he wasn't asking for your money and he, you know, he wasn't on the same nonsensical, you know, the TV shows, I shouldn't say they're nonsensical television shows, but things that are where you sandwich important information in between fiction. It always leaves a plausible deniability and Lue doesn't mess with that stuff. It's like, look, here's my record. And now we can see the people that tried to silence him. And so it was very, very different. Where are all the other Lue's? We know they existed. Where are all the other program managers? Where are the foreign program managers? They're not speaking up. There's a lot of simple questions as to why, whether they've been threatened, whether they're under NDA. But I talk to a lot of people every day who want to help in this subject, very high profile people, but they don't want their names out there yet attached to it. They believe in it. They think it's real, but they're still waiting for that tipping point to where we stop laughing at it, where it stops ruining careers and ruining brands or What keeps more from coming forward is dishonor / stigma changing people's minds about you as an individual. It's primarily stigma that's keeping them from speaking out non-anonymously. I would say that primarily stigma and wanting to... Let me try to make an analogy here that if I came back to the tribe around the campfire and I brought a power saw, what are we going to use it for? It has a purpose. It's for cutting wood. But a lot of the folks in the tribe are probably going to want to use it to go take over the other tribe next door because it's the most powerful weapon they've ever seen. And right there, we may just be talking about human nature, but I think that there's so much of our humanity wrapped up in the answers that we all assume are part of this, that very few people have been willing to take responsibility in any way, shape or form. Lue, what do you believe to be the primary reason? Look, Curt, I'm... For lack of transparency. Yeah, I'm a little more practical and probably a little bit less optimistic for our species on this particular question. What if there was knowledge, Curt, that was so volatile, so earth shattering, that the mere knowledge of that getting out could predicate an action that could potentially threaten the entire species? Now, what do I mean by that? For just a moment, take off the scientific hat, take off your humanitarian hat, take off your philanthropic hat and put on a hat of national security. We just talked about the fact that there's no indication that these things have been here to help us. So there's really only three possibilities. They're benign or, if you will, benevolent. Or two, they are malevolent. They're here to hurt us. Or three, they're just here to observe us and they're capable of doing both good and bad like us. Well, if you were to put on your national security hat for a second, let's say you're a general from the 1950s or 60s and your job is to protect America and all things good and great. And the height of the Cold War and you've got the Soviet bear across there. Things are pretty tough, right? And nuclear proliferation is a real thing. Now, you have information that there is something here that can outperform anything you have. And really, anything you have is rather ineffective from a national security perspective. And there's a thing out there and it doesn't show that it's being benevolent. So there are two other options, either malevolent or it's like us. And we see this very careful ISR surveillance of our nuclear equities. It's interested in nuclear equities. Well, some may look at that as what we call preparation at the battlefield. And let's just say hypothetically, there's a 10% chance, you assess a 10% chance that these things are bad or one day they're going to come here in force and they're looking at us, right? Remember, you're putting on your national security hat. So forget about everything else for a moment. Your job is to be paranoid. And there's a small remote chance that these things are not good. And maybe there is a plan for these things at some point to come in force in 50 years from now. And if the mere fact you have this conversation with the American people, what's going to happen? Well, the American people are going to start getting prepared. Well, I can tell you in real life combat situations, when we send in long range surveillance, LERS teams behind enemy lines, the moment the enemy finds out that we know, that they know we're there, the element of surprise is over. And so ultimately, hypothetically, imagine a scenario where maybe we had 50 years to prepare for something, but now that the cat's out of the bag, that existential action will happen tomorrow. And by the way, we're not ready for it. We're not prepared for it. We don't have a countermeasure. We don't have a capability to counter this. And so from a very real perspective, a national security perspective, the mere fact that you are acknowledging the existence of something may predicate an action or an act that you're not prepared to have right now. And so I encourage you and your listeners to just for a moment, I'm not asking you to be a national security person, but I'm asking you to suspend your personal beliefs right now for just a moment and put yourself in somebody else's shoes who does feel that way, right? Now, what do you do? If the mere fact of talking about this could potentially cause a reaction that you're not ready for as a country, as a civilization, right? Maybe that's the reason why you decided to only brief certain presidents who have a background in intelligence. Maybe they were former directors of CIA, but the other presidents who are career politicians will be, you know, they're here today, gone in four years. Maybe you can't even risk telling them. And so maybe the reason why this has been kept secret so long is actually in a weird sense, some sort of sense of patriotism by people. And, you know, maybe that's how they justify it. And I'll leave that at that as, you know, just as a counterpoint of forcing people to think maybe a little bit non-traditionally. Now, do I think if that happened to ever be the case, that's a good explanation? No, I still think that we have to be honest with the American people. You know, it's like going to, I've said this before, it's like going to the doctor. Just because I have cancer, you know, it's bad news. Don't keep that from me. I want to know because maybe there's a chance I can do something about it, right? And so, but do I understand that mentality? Sure, nobody wants to give anybody bad news. Now, am I saying that's the case? No, I'm not. It's just, you asked me one of the reasons why people would want to keep this secret. Well, that's a really damn good reason why people may want to keep this secret because the mere fact of not keeping it secret could cause a reaction that you're not ready for yet. There's nothing you can do. You don't have a countermeasure. So, again, from a national security perspective, you know, that makes sense. Again, I don't agree with it, but, you know, that's understandable. What should I do then as someone who? That's a wrong question to ask. Sean can give you advice on that. I can't tell you what to do. That's my problem. See, when we go down this rabbit hole, people want to know what should they do about it. That's not for me to answer. That's for you to answer yourself. I can't tell you what to do about it. What should I do? I can't tell you what to. I can give you like, look, hey, look, you've been diagnosed with cancer. You should get treatment. But how you get that treatment and who you get it from and how you decide to do it, that's on you, brother. That's not me. It would be overstepping my bounds to even begin. This is where people go wrong in this whole area of ufology and UFOs because they want, well, what do I do about it? And people are really quick to tell, well, this is what you should do. You should subscribe and you should give me money and I'll teach you how to do this. That's horse shit. No, you figure that shit out. That's you. Don't ask me because I'm not smart enough to tell you what's in your best interest. Only you can make that decision. I'm smart enough to tell you what's in my best interest, but I can't tell you what's in your best interest and I won't. And that's overstepping my bounds. I don't know if Sean has a, I'm sure Sean probably has his own perspective, but I'll shut up now. I don't think Lue is passionate enough. So, Sean, if you could please. For me, it comes down to the fact that, you know, while doing this the last couple of years, I've been offered a lot of opportunity. Opportunity that might have been fun, but it would have tainted everything that I thought was important about this. And it would have confused people and it would have placed me into a bucket of saying, ah, he's just trying to make money. He's just trying to do this, that and the other. I've given a lot of thought to that over the years, man. And what motivates me and the reason that I'm here and the reason that I'm not saying, what can I do? Lue didn't come up to me at any point in the last four years and go, this is what I need you to do, Sean. That hasn't happened. We've become colleagues and we've become equals together, working together. But I had to find my own road for this. And for me, I had to really put a lot of thought into that because at the time that I met Lue, I was teaching meditation. I was trying to lead a very different life. And a lot of the aspects that bump into that kind of thing in UAP are still very important to me. However, that wasn't the most effective thing for me. The most effective thing for me was taking my career as a Master at Arms and as a chief in the Navy and taking the story of my involvement in the TIC-TAC event in 2004 and utilizing that moment in time that we had with Unidentified and with a few other things to reach out and have a conversation with people who didn't have a chance to see all that information, who didn't understand that this had occurred and that it was real. And then they began socializing that at a higher and higher level until the people that can actually affect actual change were reaching out and they were interested in how we could do things. And as we had progressed along that line, we created a network of concerned individuals. And that's how I got here. Now, a lot of other people out there, they have very specific skill sets. I get contacted by lawyers. I get contacted by software developers and even manufacturers, diecast folks. And they're like, how can we help? And it's like, well, I don't need to cast anything. And I can't afford a lawyer. And, you know, and it's like, so it's like, I don't, you know, when JFK said, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. What he was saying was, stop, don't keep asking for answers. You have to find your answers. Where do you become part of the solution in here? And I know that that overwhelms a lot of people, but it doesn't have to be huge. You know what I mean? Not everybody's Luke Skywalker. Some folks are doing a great deal of help, lifting people up so they can finally press a button or finally grab a gold ring. And if it's a team, none of that's ever, I'm kind of just pontificating, but none of that's done in a vacuum, man. We have to find out what we need out of this. It's not a recruitable subject. It's not like we get enough buses full of people and we're going to drive to the thing and we're going to wave a sign and get what we need. It's not quite like that. You want to know what my number one advice is, and I'm going to let Sean explain this because Sean does a better job than I do. But when people say what they ask me to do, what's the first thing I should do? And this is going to sound a little crazy, but you know what? I'm going to let Sean explain it because I think he definitely gets it. My one word of advice is turn to your children, turn to your loved ones and love them. Invest in your relationship with your loved ones and your friends. Start with that. And people get mad. They're like, well, what the hell does that have to do with the topic of UAPs and anything else? This has everything to do with it. Because if you don't stop to do that and realize what's really important in life, then everything else is irrelevant. And I'm going to hit the head real quick for a second because I've been drinking this. And by the way, I haven't seen any of you cats drinking and you told me to drink beer. So, well, you told me I had to drink beer. So now I got to go to the bathroom a lot. So you can't blame me. But over to Sean, because that's my one word of advice. Turn around and tell your loved ones that you love them. Remind them that you love them. And that's where you start. But I'll let Sean jump in on that because he does a much better job explaining it than I do. Lue gave me that. Oh, go ahead. Lue, just a follow-up on this. If you can hold your bladder. I got to go to the bathroom. Yeah. Okay. Well, then think about this because I'm curious. What is it that you tell your children about the phenomenon? You got it. I'll answer that after Sean's done. When I first met Lue, this was too daunting of a subject. It was too big of a playing field. There were too many details and too much going on. And it was kind of freaking me out. Because very early on, a few years ago, I accepted that this was real all in a rush and then started doing more research in different areas. Some of this can be pretty heavy sometimes. And I turned to him and I didn't know what to do. And he said, you need to check your foundations. Basically, what it came down to was achieving world peace while coming from a busted home where people are living in fear or where there's no communication and no love isn't worthwhile. That's not the mission. The mission here is to, I call it, this kind of gets a little woo, but I call it my creations and my covenants. That's what I'm beholden to. And those are my children and my wife. First of all. And then my circle of family and my circle extends out there to my friends and my family and larger family and things like that. But I am truly beholden to those people in my house, to my wife and children. And I can't ignore them. And that means that I have to choose to be the right person in that house. And that means that I have to choose to look for my faults and to be self-aware. And I try to be the best person that I can in that environment because it is truly where everything else stems from. If you're not doing the right thing with the people that you love the most, that are closest to you, why do you feel the need to mount a horse and ride off on this crusade to change the world? Truly start changing the world where you are and where you begin and then turn towards slaying the dragon. It makes slaying the dragon a much more logical, much more easy process because your heart's in a state where it knows right from wrong and it knows where to go next. It's not bogged down by the worry that, frankly, that we all take to work with us every day. You know what I mean? We all get up in the morning wondering about the go to bed angry, wondering about the argument of the kids' grades like this. How is this relationship panning out? Are we going to separate? We've all got these things going on, but if we all decided to take the kind of effort that we wanted to apply to ufology, turn around in the short term even, and applied it in our own lives and our homes, suddenly these larger battles become much easier. Thank you, Sean. Now, Lue, do you have an answer to that question, which is, what is it that you tell your family slash children about the phenomenon? They need to find their own answers. We're all trying to figure this out together. And it's okay to be excited. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to be What does Lue tell his children about the phenomenon? whatever human emotion you need to ascribe to it. It's okay. I think honesty and truth is the best remedy always. That will get us through pretty much anything, even when the news is bad, even when the news is good. I try not to think for anybody. Don't try to think for my kids or my spouse or my friends. The only person I can think for is me. I tell my kids, just be kind to one another. Be kind to the world as much as you can. Try to give back more than you take. Because I think whether you're talking about UFOs or anything else, that's sound advice. If you want to think about UFOs, well, it depends on how you lead your life as a human being, which is going to take you down the road. Look, there's a lot of people out there that want to hijack the narrative. But it's not just because it's a UFO thing. It's because that's the kind of people they are. They will do that with anything and any opportunity that they're given. UFOs is just one of them. But there are people out there that will try to do that and hijack that. And it's a shame. But I can't change those people. I'm not going to. I'm not going to waste my time changing those people. They have to deal with that on their own terms. And that's on them. Look, there's bad people. I face them in Washington. I face them on the battlefield. I face them every day. When someone is trying to mug you or carjack you or something like that, there's just bad people out there. So anyways, that's my two cents, maybe three cents. Okay, I'm going to get to some audience questions. And just so you know, the set of audience questions this time is of extreme high quality. And that's saying plenty, given some of the quality that's been on this channel. And much of that's due to the culling of the questions and the ordering of the questions from that UFO podcast, which is to be specific, Andy and Dan, and they graciously helped me out with these questions. So if you like the theories of everything podcast, and I'm someone who's asinine and [Matriiac] What field or degree would you choose to better understand UFOs? sophomoric when it comes to this topic, then you'll gain a great deal from watching that UFO podcast and the link is in the description to subscribe to them. So this question comes from matriarch directed to both of you, if you could start over and pursue a different educational path with the hopes of understanding UAPs more fully, what degree would you choose? Sean, you want to tackle that one? Yeah. Um, I don't know if the curriculum exists. It's a tough question. There's not one for me that fits it. I'm a generalist. I'm a student of the human condition. Sorry, it's an interruption. I'll give you an example. Earlier, about a few months ago, when I was speaking with you, Lue, and you gave me the question, Curt, what if you wanted some thing to survive generations and generations and millions of years? And I said, Well, perhaps nanotechnology or metamaterials and launch it into space. So that's materials engineering. And you said, Well, perhaps you should think about DNA. Okay, so that's biology. So those would be two different fields to go in, if one was thinking about the preservation of some object, some length of time. Can I jump in on that, Curt? Please. I would probably start with philosophy. And why is that? Because philosophy is one of the few areas that teaches you how to think and not what to think, right? In the topic of UAPs, it's not a matter of what, it's how, you know, how do we process the data? How does this apply to our species, where we're going, where we're from, etc. There's very few academic pursuits that teach somebody how to think. Most people, and I can tell you this from personal experience with my children, most schools teach kids what to think. And that's a problem, because we've forgotten what real teaching is about. I can instruct somebody on how to do something. But real teaching is something different. You know, a lot of the Eastern philosophies understood that, you know, it's not teaching somebody the specifics, it's teaching somebody how to find the data themselves. And I think I would probably start with that, maybe do some reading on people who look at things maybe a little bit differently, right? And are prescribing you what to think, but more importantly, again, how to think. I was going to joke philosopher ninja. Because frankly, I completely agree with Lue, I don't want to hit a buzzword by saying consciousness, because a lot of people, that's another conflated term. But philosophy with an eye towards protecting the human race, I think is something that I that's what I would want. I would want someone who's looking out for all of the people who can think deeply and who can who can arrive at different solutions. Because we have this is a different paradigm. This is not in the rule books. This is, if anything has been other in our experience, it's UAP. And so we our ability to understand that is going to absolutely begin in our ability to understand ourselves first. So that when we encounter this thing that is so strange that it's it's so beyond our understanding that we have the we have the self-awareness to survive that. You know, the old the old story, do you do you give a man a fish or do you teach a man how to fish, right? Feed him for a day or or feed him for life. And I think that's what is important here. You know, people should should not ask for for a fish piece of fish, you know, learn how to fish and ask the questions yourself and find the answers yourself. So you're not relying on other people to give those answers for you. Is there another field? So let's imagine that philosophy was underway. You're allowed a double major. I would say probably is there a course on comic relief like you got it. You got to keep your sanity in this. You can't lose yourself. I'll be the first one to admit that, you know, there's times I'll call Sean or others that I trust, you know, in the middle of the night just to vent something, you know, can you believe that, you know, you do all this and people are out there just making a bullshit about you. And you got it. You got to take it with a grain of salt. And it's hard. It really is, especially when you're trying to do something really to the benefit of everybody. And people ascribe ulterior motives and they're out there, you know, I mean, it's I'm not going to go into detail, but it's bad. And you got to be willing to take that kind of heat. For me, you know, I spend a lot of my time cutting my teeth in various bad places around the world. And, you know, I'll tell you in combat, I never, you know, when someone's shooting at you or rocketing you or mortaring you, I never took it personally. I like it, right. But I never took it personally because that's warfare. But this is different when your own fellow citizens are doing things that they do sometimes because of personal bias or whatever, you know, selfish motivations in some cases. That hurts because these are your fellow citizens, right? This is the reason why you went to war in the first place. And now these people are doing and saying terrible things. You've got to learn how to take that with a grain of salt and not take it personally. And it's tough. It really is, Curt. You know, it is, you know, we're all human beings. We all have emotions. We're all emotional creatures. And I think it's my advice would be, look, you know, go see a comedy, you know, learn a course in, you know, comic relief because you got to keep yourself sane. Otherwise, you will burn out far too early. Sean? Part of me wants to say game theory. Honestly, you know, I want to take your question seriously. I think philosophy, game theory, an understanding of the martial sciences and an ability to think with self-awareness, to be a self-aware human being, to be a fully realized human being who has done their shadow work, for lack of a better word, you know, in a Jungian sense, who's climbed through their hero's journey, who knows what those things mean because they are learned enough to try to understand what this life is and to try to find out what the archetypal similarities between humans are that we can use to find commonality and validity. And someone that seeks to truly understand what this is because this is very multi-layered. It's not as simple as just a Volkswagen in a field with a dead body. If it was, I think we'd already be there. Okay, this next question comes from Jesse Mischelt of American Alchemy and the link to his YouTube channel is in the description and is directed toward you, Lue. How has your background in parapsychology dovetailed with the phenomenon? Wow, so great question from Jesse. My background in formal education was microbiology, immunology, and parapsychology, not parapsychology, [Jesse Michels] Parapsychology but as a lot of people know, I did spend some time in my career working alongside people like Hal Pudoff and whatnot and Kit Green and folks that have been exposed to that side of the U.S. government regarding paranormal, I guess we can call it. Let me state this first and foremost. Let's not forget everything in science is paranormal until it becomes normal. Okay, this very phone here, 100 years ago, certainly paranormal. If I say the word parachute, people think of a life-saving device that deploys and helps you hit the ground more with a wump instead of a thump. If I say the word paramedic, you think of a first responder, someone there who's giving you an IV and maybe saving your life, right? They're all based on the Latin word para, beside or above, and then whatever the word is. When you say paranormal, it just means beyond normal, but the associated stigma with the word paranormal really paralyzes any further conversation because people all of a sudden will kind of look, they'll cock their head, maybe they'll smile at you a little bit and kind of like, what do you mean paranormal? Well, I just mean something that hasn't been normalized yet. Everything in science, my definition again, is paranormal until it becomes normal. Let's not forget that every law and principle we have in science now started off as someone's wacky zany idea. Look at Galileo, right? He almost killed him for the fact that he proposed that the earth was not the center of the solar system based upon Copernicus. And yet there were people that even refused to look through his telescope because it was an insult. It was an affront to their preconceived notions, right? It was paranormal. And here we are now looking at it quite normally. And so I think we forget that mother nature has a vote. Mother nature is wondrous. And mother nature always defies labels. She defies definition most of the time. Every time we try to describe what life is and put it in a nice neat little box, she proves us wrong. She proves that she is paranormal. Let me give you an example, Curt. When I was a kid, I learned that all life was basically, it was based upon photosynthesis, right? All life. And it turns out that's not the case. There's animals in the deep parts of the ocean that survive off of chemosynthesis near black smokers. Then you learn that all life depends on, has to have DNA. Well, now along come things like viruses where we realize, well, it has RNA, it doesn't have DNA. And yet it still replicates and does a lot of things that living things do. So is that life? Then you have extremophiles that live the deepest parts of high-pressure Antarctic, very cold, very high-pressure ice, miles beneath the Antarctic ice, miles beneath the surface of the earth itself. And in fact, even... In the tallest mountains, in fact, we find microbial life, hitching rides on our rockets into space and frankly doing quite well. So what does that mean? What does that mean? Well, it means that maybe most of the universe is paranormal. It is just beyond our reach. And our quest is to make the paranormal normal. How does it prepare you for this topic? I think it keeps you humble to some degree. I think it's amazing. I'm not scared of it. I think it's wondrous. I think the human being is the most profound, complex piece of machinery. And I think there's other aspects to the human being that we're just now beginning to explore. I think life itself, let me ask you this, Curt. You have quite a big background in physics. So I'm not nearly as smart or well-versed as you in this field, but let me ask you a question. What is energy? What is it? Can you define it for me? How about let's do an easier one. How about matter? What's matter? What is matter? Technically matter is what is a part of a matter field. And there's a technical definition for matter that's based on observation. This question of what is, then you can ask, well, what is the number five? And then what is anything? Anytime one gives an answer, then it's like a child asking why behind that question. And that's valid. Correct. Well, my point being is that we have these principles of science such as gravity, such as matter, such as energy. We've described, we even have mathematics to describe how they behave, and yet we still don't know what it actually is. What is it? What is it? Yeah. Here's a question for you, though, about that. It's something I've been thinking about. What answer could someone give that would be satisfactory? What could an answer be that would make someone say, oh, okay, now I understand what it is? Well, we may be asking the wrong question. What it is may be nonsensical because maybe the question is, why is it? It may not be a what, it might be a why. It might be a where. It might be a when, believe it or not. It may not be a what. Let me throw in that folks should be, sorry, this is gonna make me sound really old. Folks should use their dictionary more because we have so many words in this field specifically that have assumed meanings due to the way they've been used in the past and associated that color people's judgment on things. For example, if I said to you, the occult, that paints something in all of our heads, but at the moment, my right hand is occult. Now, if you don't understand what that word means, you're painting your ignorance with your perception. You're telling me that we waste so much time with people who go down these assumptive rabbit holes based on what they think words mean and the way that people use them and they assign, they just keep running with it. And I want us to back off on that in the community in general and start using better words. Like we have to explain the word paranormal. Paranormal doesn't mean ghostbusters. It means the edges of perception. It's that simple. Now, some people want to say it means ghosts and goblins and werewolves and boogums and all this other stuff. And well, maybe that's what we want to investigate, but that's not the, we can't jump to these continual conclusions. So I'm just so evidence-based when it comes to this. I love to talk the philosophy, but we do mix the philosophy with the nuts and bolts a lot of times and make far too great of a leap, I think. Okay. This next question comes from Bill Yates. It's a live question. It says, I have aphantasia. So it means that one lacks a mind's eye, lacks inner sound, feeling, and even hearing. How does Lue and you, Sean, as well, think the phenomenon would interact with someone such as himself, such as Bill Yates? I would say perhaps even more intimately, we don't know, because people who suffer from that also sometimes have other abilities [Bill Yates] Aphantasia and interacting with the phenomenon that we don't really have because they've have a heightened sense in other areas. We know that there are people, for example, who are blind and they can echolocate. They can actually use sound to have in their mind's eye an understanding of the environment around them. Now, that seems kind of crazy for us, and yet we see it in nature all the time, whether it's dolphins or bats or anything else. You know, there are people who are certainly, suffer from, for example, autism, extreme forms of autism, and yet they have photographic memory. They can do incredible extreme mathematical computations in their heads. They're piano virtuosos, right? And have never had any formal training in it. How is that possible? Well, it's possible because the human brain is, first of all, it's wonderfully equipped and it's an incredible organ, but it's still very little understood about the human brain. And, you know, sometimes there's an old, I'll answer your question, but maybe a little bit more succinctly. There was a young student who was trying to learn from the master and the master says, do you now see? And the young student says, no, master, I've been looking for months and months and months at the sunset you've been telling me to look at near the mountain, over the mountain. And I still don't see. And the master says to the student, in order to see, sometimes you have to close your eyes. And, you know, there you go, right? Sometimes you can actually see more clearly by closing your eyes than you can see with your eyes open. In other words, we have preconceptions that could be removed, and then that would give us a greater understanding or insight? Yeah, I mean, sometimes our sense is foolish. Look at an optical illusion, right? An optical illusion is just that, where our eyes are telling us one thing, but reality is something different, right? And in this case, our senses are failing us. Not all senses are necessarily beneficial and they can be fooled. They can be spoofed, right? Human vision is just another sensor collection system, like hearing and touching and tasting and whatnot. And we know they can be spoofed. Our feelings can be spoofed, right? You can be betrayed by someone. Our sight can be spoofed, you have optical illusions. Our hearing can be spoofed. You know, we're not perfect systems. They can be flawed. And sometimes filtering out certain inputs, can actually be beneficial, perhaps. Sorry, John, I kept interrupting you. Oh, no, man, it's okay. Interestingly enough, without an official diagnosis, I believe I suffer from apantasia as well. I don't possess a very vibrant inner mind's eye, except upon waking from dreams, or frankly, very vivid trance states, where I've taken myself down through meditation to a different place. For me, that was finding out the word apantasia existed, to me was very important to understanding myself and my mind's eye and what my personal inner experience is. That led to researching things like interoception, understanding the inner workings of the body and the perception of the inner workings of your body. Something you can do through meditation is to actually start to pinpoint certain places of the body and then start to understand their processes. But beyond that, I put, because of things I've witnessed and experienced, and I'm very lucky to have witnessed and experienced some things in the company of others, especially some of the harder to accept things that maybe some people would consider, excuse me, consider like poltergeist activity or things like that. I've been lucky enough to have other witnesses with me to at least say that we saw that thing. We may not know why or what, but that led me to research paraphernalia. And paraphernalia is like having schizophrenia without the bad parts. And I did a great deal of searching down the comorbidity of those things. And I find it very interesting that the phenomenon interacts with human consciousness in a way that can mirror mental illness in some. And it seems that if one perseverates on these ideas without finding validity or answers, that it may be one of those triggers for mental illness. Now, whether those are parts of our fundamental archetype of our consciousness or not, or whether that's directly due to the phenomenon or not, I can't say. I think all of us has to take the time to go, what's up with me? What's my list of things going on with me? What can I change? What can I understand? And how can I be the most effective human being while observing my own life? I don't know if that makes sense. I don't know a lot of people that are interested in living their life in real time, if that makes sense. A lot of folks are looking to jump from one dopamine fix to another, fear avoidance, risk avoidance, and pleasure seeking. And a lot of people would say that that in itself is the human condition. And I don't wanna say that I'm holier than thou or better than anybody, just because I wanna check out the societal aspect of a lot of things and delve deeper into what a lot of us call the matrix, casually. But I think that that's where many of the answers to this are gonna lie for a lot of people. We were talking off air, Lue and Sean and myself about how uncomfortable it is, at least for myself and many others, judging by the comments, it can be to study this phenomenon and just consciousness in general, and how that's something that almost no one talks about. I have an episode with Carl Friston, who is a neuroscientist, The Karl Friston episode is the most important TOE episode one of the, if not the most cited neuroscientist, just on this, on how destabilizing and debilitating can be. I'm still recovering from, well, if you want, you can watch that episode, people who are interested. By the way, I consider it to be the most important episode of all the theories of everything podcast, because it sets a stage and talks about something that you may feel extremely uncomfortable with and think that you're alone, but you're not. And you may think that it's hopeless, but it's not. Jacob Lizzo from Signals, the YouTube channel, the link to that will be in the description, asks to both of you, let's pretend tomorrow an unidentified craft crashes out in the Nevada desert, and you are both tasked with recovering the craft. Considering your experience and your knowledge, what sort of precautions would you take? What sorts of technology and human resources would you bring with you to aid your investigation? [Jacob Lizzio] How would you recover a UFO craft? My experience and knowledge in that would come from aircraft investigation and aircraft recovery. So I'd first set up a curriculum, so to speak, with my team that spoke about what I had learned about. First of all, when you arrive on a scene, especially of a catastrophic failure of any kind of vehicle, you have to understand that as soon as you get there, you're going to have exposure of chemicals, fuel, depending upon what kind of craft it might be. It could be radiated. We had portions of our training that were, what if a satellite came down or something like that in the wrong place? And this was from my law enforcement training because I had traffic accident and aircraft accident investigator training as well. I would start there. Then I would delve into the established programs of record that what they studied. Well, they studied radiative effects of something that appeared to be emitting high energy, for lack of a better word. I would get down to, first, the most important thing to me would be making sure that my team got in and got out with everything they came in and got out with, that they were safe. Safety is the number one priority. And after that, it would be really just dealing with the environmental factors. The people that I would send to do something like that, frankly, I would not send scientists. I would send people that were, I would send people that were able to immediately respond to an environment, coordinate off, and then I would call in the scientists. So I'm kind of doing that in real time. I've never been involved with anything like that involved, involving UAP, but I can take what we did with aircraft and maintaining public safety, personal safety of the teams. And I could extend, I can extrapolate that out to even more stringent safety measures and an even more cautious approach, because in the end, I would treat it as a crime scene. We treat, as a first responder, we treat everything like a crime scene because it maintains the evidentiary value of everything. You can't just go stomping through something unless it's to save life or limb, if that makes sense. So we wouldn't trump a crime scene unless it was to save somebody else. So I would look out for personal safety. I would look out for ensuring evidentiary value was maintained, that forensic evidence was maintained under the proper conditions, the chain of custody was maintained under the proper conditions, and that frankly, the right people were the ones giving reports. The initial team should be giving data-driven reports. And conclusions and great in-depth forensic investigations would come later. I would do pretty much the same thing. In essence, and that's probably because Sean and I come from similar backgrounds, but first of all, I'd set up a perimeter to secure it. Then you have to come up with ways to transport it, safeguard it, study it, analyze it, ultimately exploit it. And of course, you're taking precautions. So like, for example, hazmat, how do you transport hazardous material, right? How do you protect your people from being contaminated chemically or radiologically, right? And then of course, you want to handle it very much like you would perhaps a TSA investigation of an airplane crash, right? You don't know what you're coming up to. So you've got to approach it as everything is potential evidence. And so I think, you don't know what you don't know. There's the big challenge, right? If there's some sort of danger that you're unaware of, well, then you're unaware of it. There's not a whole lot you can do to prepare for something that you don't know exists. So what you do is you, approach it in the way that you do know how to approach things that are perhaps similar. Again, like an airplane crash. And that's how I would approach it. Oh, I'll take, I'll get right into that, man. The first guy that walks into the settlement that only has an atlatl carrying a sword, every person carrying an atlatl in that place wants to exploit that sword. They want to exploit the knowledge of the person holding the sword. What is that material? How did you get it so sharp? How is it so strong? Where did it come from? How do I get one? And that's the job, frankly, of the United States government and the military and other apparatuses. That's part of what they do as part of our national defense. If a MiG crashed in Alaska, which, or any other place, and you know, the, during the height of the cold war, the exact same team that we're describing would have come in and done the same thing. They would have, they would have gotten that evidence, gotten it to a place and said, how the hell does this MiG work? What frequencies are they transmitting on? How fast does the engine go? What's the load rate, bearing rate of the wings and the weapons pylons? That's what exploitation means. It's, and that's why I say, semantically, in a military retrieval sense, it means go get the thing and figure out how it works and figure out how we can make it work to keep our people safe. And that's what it means. It doesn't mean exploit in the negative sense that we often use with, with other conversations. You know what I mean? An exploited individual or something like that, where someone is using them. Because in this sense, we're talking about material. Okay. Material can be used. People should not be used. So material, theories, things like that. That's what the exploitation is. It's an unpacking and understanding. Yeah. Curt, there was actually, just last week, there was a headline in major news outlets about a crashed F-35 that fell off the deck of a carrier during landing. And the Chinese and the US were in a race to recover it. Now, why do you think the Chinese were in a race to recover a crashed US F-35 aircraft? Well, because they wanted to exploit it. So, you know, that's, that's, that's not unusual. You know, countries do this all the time. I see. I see. Okay. Euphoric Gur asks to both of you, are you aware of encounters, hostile or otherwise, where different types of UAPs have been observed interacting with each other? I'll, I'll jump in first. I've said this before, and let me, let me emphasize this again. [Euphoric_Gur_4674] Different types of UAP interacting There is a difference between potential threat and hostile intent. Okay. You know, if there are lots of technology out there that if I misuse it will hurt me. Now, is it the intent of that technology to hurt me? No, it's just a product of me not understanding the technology. The fact that we looked at potential biological effects for consequences in AATIP and are continuing now in this new effort in the law, shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. Should not be confused as hostile intent. People say, oh, you're fear-mongering. No, it's not fear-mongering. You know, if I put my hand in a car door and I slam the car door, my hand's going to hurt. Okay. There's a threat. I'm going to break some bones in my hands and do damage. Is it the intent of the car to hurt me? No, I just, it's, it's my own fault. I didn't understand how the technology worked and I got hurt by it. And so, you know, there is, there is information to suggest that people have been injured by, by UAP technology. Was it necessarily on purpose? We don't have any information to suggest that necessarily, but then if you talk to people who claim to have personal experiences in this, you know, a lot of them claim to be taken against their own will. Well, that's in my, from my perspective, that's crime. That's called kidnapping. And then some people claim that they've been, been, been touched. Well, that's assault, right? Potentially battery. You see where I'm going with this, right? So, so, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a hard question to answer because you can ask anybody out there and somebody will probably give you a, a, a different answer. I believe this person was referring to the UAPs interacting with other UAPs rather than people. Oh, I, I, you know, I don't know, like, like fighting each other. Is that, is that what you mean? Yes. Have you, are you aware of that? Like different types of them? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I'll reread the question. Are either of you aware of encounters hostile or otherwise where different types of UAPs have been observed interacting with each other? So there is, there is, you know, obviously if you look at some of the, the, the old text and there's something called the Nuremberg incident in Europe, where there was reports of what seemed to be some sort of dogfight back in the 1600s, apparently. And it was recorded in something called the, it was in Nuremberg, Germany. Right. And they had paintings of this, of different rod shapes and disc shapes and, and what cigar shaped vehicles apparently fighting each other, like in, in what seems to be some sort of dogfight over time. You know, I, I can't say that was the case in ATIP, but there is some historical information. Of course, I wasn't there, so I can't, I can't tell you. All I can tell you is that allegedly those types of things may have occurred in the past, but we didn't see any of that in, in ATIP. I was going to say the Nuremberg woodcutting as well. And other than that, I don't have a really good example, you know, and I'm willing, I'm willing to give that one credence. It's an excellent, it reads really well. And when you look at the woodcutting, the, it's very easy to conflate it with modern reports. It's a very interesting story. I'd love to know what really happened. I don't know. But in general, I've never, I've never encountered that in my own work and in my own life. I mean, there's historical, even in religious texts, right? Where you talk about the Vimana in Hindu texts that would fight each other. And even some Mayan texts as well of different crafts engaging each other. There was a very interesting stone that I had the privilege, I have some pictures, actually very interesting pictures that I took in Peru in front of the Air Force Intelligence Office in Lima, Peru. They actually have a formal UFO program that is run by the government. And they do very well with it, actually. It's a, it's a formal investigation that they do of any reported UFO incidents. And there in front of the, in front of the Air Force Intelligence building are several stones, Inca stones. And these are real legitimate Inca stones. Well, I gotta tell you, you gotta, you should look at some of these stones because it's pretty incredible. Some of the things, what these stones are depicting, you know, really got you scratching your head. Like people using telescopes, which by the way, didn't exist back then. And flying vehicles that have fire beneath them and what appears to be a tail gunner and the stars and the moon. And I mean, someone obviously had a pretty good understanding of, you know, the earth being round as celestial bodies a long time ago to make these stones. And it's, it's very interesting. Now, is that, that proof positive or evidence of anything? No, you know, it could just be someone's wild imagination. You know, there, there is lots of that out there, but you know, could be something else too. So. Okay. This question comes from Myles Collareven. If I'm mispronouncing that, I apologize. It's directed to both of you. Are you aware of attempts to make contact with UAPs? And if so, what were the results? Are they still taking place? I'm not aware of it. I'm not aware of any official [Miles Koliarievin @koliarievin] Attempts to make contact with UAP programs like that or efforts like that. I have spent a great deal of time studying all of the different contact groups around the world to include various mediums and, and so-called channelers that claim to be in contact with various and sundry alien civilizations that they have all of this deep knowledge about that I can't verify any of it. And when I take each of these little slots and ideologies that form around these folks and start comparing what one has to say against the other, it's very rare that I can find much in common. And so I'm not, I don't know where to go with a lot of that information. It's hard for me to collate. It's hard for me to understand. I would ask you define contact. What does that mean? Contact? Does it mean sitting down having a beer? Does it mean making yourself known? Does it mean conversation? What, what, what does contact mean? You know, I've, people are aware that there were efforts by the U.S. government to, to collect information, more information on these things. But what do you mean by, do you mean like a close encounters where we sit down and we have coffee together? We, you know, we, we, we talk about things or are we talking about contact being just the providing of evidence proof that, that they're real and that we want more to collect more information, you know? Yes, there were efforts to try to, try to collect additional information, maybe create a scenario or the environment where perhaps these things would show up. And in so doing, we could collect information. Now, is that contact? Well, some could argue, yeah, that's a form of contact. You know, it's like, like, like when people say, have we communicated? Well, that depends. What's your definition of communication? When, when I'm, when I'm waving to you from across the room, I'm communicating. I may not be communicating to verbally, but I'm communicating to you. When we scramble an F-22 to go intercept a Russian bear off the coast of Alaska, we're not talking to them, but we're communicating, make no mistake. We're communicating an intent. So again, when you say contact, that's a bit broad. I need that more narrowly defined in order to answer that question properly. Sure. I'm sure you've heard of a disc that's been sent off into space and it has two people. I don't recall the name of it. So it's on the, it's on the Voyager pioneer probes. I can't recall. Right. Okay. And so that was Earth's attempt at trying to communicate with whoever is a civilization that may not share our language has something similar occurred between the US government or between humans is doesn't have to be relegated to the US government and the UAPs. Something that says, look, I'm trying to show you the connection between this symbol and some intent, a symbol. How about that? Communicating with symbols. Let me ask you a question, Curt. Why do we make the assumption that an exterior force is going to make communication with a governmental agency or entity? Why not? You know, and, and again, why not in a fashion, why not communicate in a fashion that was hard to ignore? You know what I mean? But instead, these seem to be, pardon me for using the word, but clandestine and piecemeal when it comes to interaction with the public. And if what Lue's saying is that it's possible that we may have created an environment that was conducive to them wanting to appear for lack of a better word. Again, it still speaks of, of a, a missing piece here, you know? And it is that, let me say, let me say this and I'm not, I'm not indicating that I want to use deadly force. Okay. But in my training, when we learned about deadly force, we learned about the deadly force triangle years ago, and that included opportunity, intent, and capability. Now we know that these, these craft have a great deal of capability and their capability seems to open up a great deal of opportunity for them. But the question is still the intent and communication. As we said, I communicate with my dog every day. I think she and I have very different ideas of what we're communicating to each other and what it means. And so communication is a very broad word. Waving at an, at a cow is communicating for me, but the cow may not perceive it that way. It may not even know that it was communicated with. So seriously, finding a common language, finding a baseline for this is, is we have a lot, and I'm not downing your questions. They're the same questions I have. And, you know, and I asked them and me and my friends talk about the same stuff around the fire and I'm just being cagey because I'm on a podcast. But the fact is, is we just don't know a lot of this stuff, you know? So I do really try to be careful with, with stating my opinion on some of this stuff, because my opinion has changed a lot over the years based on the data, based on my own personal experience and growth. And, and so it's a, I don't know. I just, I try to be careful. I'm willing to be courageous, but I try to be careful. Are you aware of psychedelics being used as a channel of communication? I'll tell you that I know that there's a lot of people out there trying to utilize that right now, and they have their own beliefs. And they have some certain commonality of experience when we're talking about those that are approaching, approaching it from a scientific fashion, those that are connected with Terrence, pardon me for not remembering his name, Psychedelics and communicating with the phenomenon but Terrence McKenna's brother has been doing a great deal. Yeah, Dennis is doing a lot of great work down South, I believe in Central America, and setting up an institute and a college to study these things, their effects in a pragmatic, scientific and fashion utilizing control groups and modern therapy. I think that's very important because it is the, the undiscovered country of human consciousness is to go down the rabbit, rabbit hole of, of loss of self, frankly. Um, now, does that tie directly into what we see in the skies and what we purport to, and what we hope might be have crashed, pardon me for hoping a crash on anyone, but hoping that there might be evidence, right? Now, we all hope that there's that eventually someday we might find that that smoking gun we all talk about that gives us clarity. But I still don't know if the spectrum we're looking at, I feel like our needle goes all over the place. All the time, because we're using a word like phenomenon. And I think that's important. I think, I think the facile idea that we have taken the word UFO and replaced it with some new, no, we use the better word, because most of the stuff that I'm encountering, regardless of whether it's unidentified or an object, it's certainly not exhibiting flight characteristics. And that just gets under my skin, that we're constantly saying flight, flying, flying it. That's a, that's a kindergarten attitude to think it's in the sky, it's flying. It's, I'm sorry to say it like that. It, that's not that we need folks to get out of that muck, get, get, get up, get up a level on some of this stuff. It really opens up new doors of thought. It opens up new possibilities as to what we're working with when you start looking at it differently and not in the science fiction. And as you've been told aspect. I agree. And we need to be more accurate with our terminology, right? This goes back to what Sean was saying in the beginning, as far as our lexicon, you know, please, you know, be, be accurate when you, when you speak, because it, you know, what words have meaning and, and a lot of people just kind of throw words around and, you know, they're not really doing their due diligence, understanding, and it confuses things. And, and, you know, we have to be accurate. That's why science is to where it is today, because it involves accuracy. Math, right? You want to be accurate when you're, when you're describing things like this, especially something that we don't know, be accurate in the unknowns. And I think that's, you know, Sean, some said it perfectly, you know, you have flight is a fundamental, you have four fundamental forces, you have thrust, lift, drag, and weight. And when you understand those, you have flight, you have control surfaces, you have wings and rudders and ailerons and elevators, but we're not seeing any of those associated technologies. And people say, well, it's a semantics. No, it's, it is, but it's important. It's important semantics, right? Otherwise just call every animal an animal, right? Forget if it's a blue whale or a human being or an elephant, it's just an animal. Well, no, there's differences, key differences. And we have to be, we have to be mindful of that. Yeah. I like to say on this podcast, there's this word that people say with denigration, it's a quiddity. Now quiddity means it's a hair splitting distinction. But it also means a peculiar essence, an odd feature in eccentricity, something that sets it apart. And so I'm a fan of delineation of taking what is disambiguated. Distinctions / quiddities / semantics matter Yeah, yes. So beautiful. This man, some of these questions are so great. This one comes from Chris pass. In the prior TOE interview, Lue asked Curt about making something that would last a million years and Curt said metamaterials harder than diamond. Lue reminded him of natural forces that constantly reshape the earth, destroying information. So Lue then mentioned the moon and the lack of these forces and processes making it a candidate to preserve something. [Chris Pass] Moon shows evidence that we were not the first intelligent life Is it Lue's belief that the moon shows evidence that we are not the first intelligent life to visit it? Well, certainly that was part of NASA's curiosity and same with China now with their little rover. We're always looking for signs of something beyond us. This is why we are exploring the planets in our solar system. This is why we are looking for technosignatures in our galaxy. This is why we send things out like the Voyager and the Pioneer and these space probes out there because we want to answer the fundamental question, are we alone? And certainly it makes sense if you don't have the erosive forces like you have here and the ever-changing environment, whether it's through tectonic movement or through water, wind, rain, all the things that grind mountains down to deserts, right? Those are very powerful forces. If you wanted to make something last forever, there's a few ways to do it, but you got to kind of think outside the box to do it. You can't, you can't, you can't, don't think about it from using the, if you, if you can paint with any palette, then you don't have to be stuck with a palette that's in front of you, you know, to paint and ignore the canvas, quite frankly. So I think certainly, you know, we need, we look for archaeological evidence here in our own planet for ancient, you know, human presence. I think we're doing that now with, with NASA, that's what these rovers are for. And don't be surprised if at some point in the future, we, you know, we, we substantiate that, you know, there, there was intelligent life perhaps and on, on other planets and moons and whatnot. And it's may not just be here. We know that Mars had an atmosphere. We know that it had a, it had a, a geomagnetic field around it, protecting its atmosphere. At one point, we know that there was water on the atmosphere. Now, does that mean all life is sustained by water? No, it doesn't. Maybe here on this planet, but we do know that, that amino acids have been carried in from, from meteors coming into, into our atmosphere and our planet amino acids being the building blocks for, for life. So, you know, I, I think, I think we shouldn't be surprised if at some point we have that confirmation that, that a lot of people speculate, you know, maybe there. Okay. Sean, do you have anything to add to that? No, I thought that was pretty succinct. Colonel Corn asks, is there anything about our moon that we should know about that we don't know? Everything we don't know. Exactly. I'm not going to get my hackles up, but I'm going to say this. A lot of these questions, they're assumptive. There's a lot of people here that want, that sound like they're trying to prove a line of thought that they're interested in. And I understand that, but a question like, what do we, what do we need to know about the moon that we don't know? My answer is everything that we don't know. Next question. Exactly. Exactly. Everything, everything that we don't know. Webstar Rises asks, do we have a direct DNA lineage with the others? It's fun to speculate, but I've got, I've got zero evidence either way. What we do know is that we have a lot in common with not only a chimpanzee, but a banana. So what does that tell you? There's a lot of commonality in our lineage. It's about all we can say right now. [Webstar Rises] Do we have a direct DNA lineage with the Others? Adam X asks, in a recent interview, Lue stated that he just finished a trip to Washington and that quote unquote crap is going to hit the fan soon. Can he elaborate on this at all? What does that mean? Yeah. There's a lot happening. There's a lot happening. [Adam X] "Crap is going to hit the fan soon..." Elaborate? The conversation has definitely shifted and more information is becoming available on a, on a, almost on a regular basis. I'm not prepared to go into any type of specifics right now. It will become evident. There's one thing that's hopefully been clear to people. Every time I say the conversation is going to shift and new stuff comes out, it does. I don't say that because the last thing I want to do is over-promise and under-deliver. I'd rather under-promise and over-deliver. But, but the conversation is occurring. And that's about all I can say right now for that, because it would require a lot of time and a lot of research and a lot right now for that, because it would require other people to step in and comment that I'm not at, I do not, I'm not in a privileged situation where I can share their, their comments or opinions on it. Sean, what do you think? I don't, I got to be careful what I say. No, I, I, you know, Lue and I go on podcasts because we want to, we want to communicate. We want to be involved in a conversation, but especially in Lue's instance, we need people to understand that when we have something to say, that's when we're going to have something to say. We're not in the, in the podcast business and we're not, we're not professional interviewers. And, and frankly, every time we do podcasts, it takes us away from the work that makes the progress. Now that doesn't, and a lot of people have wanted us, you know, they say, we want you guys to get more involved. We need, we need answers. Well, we don't have the answers that you desire. We have, we have information that we have accrued. We have relationships we have accrued. We have things we're trying to change. We have a world we're trying to change. But at this point, it's becoming less and less valuable for us to spend our time doing these things when there's so much more that we can be doing on, in what people call behind the scenes, outside of ufology, away from, from the public eye of this. And I just want to say that people have to ask themselves what they want. Do they want to be entertained or do they want change? It's, it is truly that simple because we don't have, and this is not a, this is not me striking out, but we don't have time to entertain folks. We don't have time. A lot of these questions, I'm not, I understand they're interesting questions. They're questions I ask myself, but, but for the time we have today, they're not, and for the work that we work on, they're not valuable. They're not additive at the moment to the work that we're doing. They end up muddying the water a great deal because what we're dipping into is a lot of questions about various books and beliefs and ideas in ufology, not what's on the record as evidentiary value. And I, I really want to stop, I want to stop asking or answering questions about what do you think of so-and-so's book where he had an idea? I don't think much of it. It's his idea. It's, and I could say that for a hundred other folks because it's, it's not the, we, Lue and I can't afford to sit around the campfire and have a just speculative conversation because frankly, people assign meaning to our opinions. That's, I'm tired of that. And so I want to see a place where we can have a conversation that is additive. I know people want to know what we think. It's not important what Sean Cahill thinks. Okay. It's not important what my opinions are because I think my opinions are garbage. It's important what your opinions are at home. I, I try to distance myself from, from, from that Curt as much as possible. You know, there's so much speculation in this field and everybody pushes it off as fact. It's one of the reasons why I just don't engage. You know, I'm getting to the point, I'll tell you right now, I'm going to start doing a lot less. You're going to notice a huge, I'm going to do a few more to finish up my obligations, but I'm not doing these much longer. This is it. Reason is because I'm not sure I'm being very helpful at this point. I'm helpful behind the scenes, but being like this in public, all it does is serve to divide people when really my intent was to unite people, bring them together. But the, the, I don't have time to focus on the, he said, she said bullshit. I don't, I don't care about it. Never have. I never will. And you know, you, you, you want more of the same than go back to the last 70 years of bullshit because that's what people think you are. They think you're full of shit because you talk about wacky stuff. You've got no evidence. And because he said he wrote a book on something who've, you know, what does that mean? It means nothing. You got to show evidence. You got to, you got to, you know, where are the bona fides? Where are the videos? Where's the reports? Where's the, the discussions to Congress and the classified briefings? They're nowhere because I haven't seen them on the Hill when I'm there. I haven't seen them in DC when I'm going by the Pentagon or anywhere else. They're not in those meetings. So for me to come out and when I, you know, historically I've always tried to share information and be as transparent as possible. But I think we're reaching a point now where I think people have what they need, Curt. I don't think they need Lue Elizondo coming in and feeding them information anymore. You know, and if, and if they want to go back to the way you followed, you wasn't, you know, I'll be my guest. I'm not stopping you. I don't give a shit. You know, that's on you, you know, but you're not The frustration about the topic going to stop me from doing my pursuits because I'm taking this very seriously. And I think, you know, I was, when I first came into this, people told me, oh, ufology eats its own. I'm like, what the hell is ufology? I don't even know what that is. I'm not a ufologist. I never have, and I never will be. So stop wrapping me into that. I'm not, I am not into a ufology. I'm not. In fact, it was up to me. I'd blow it up into a million pieces of, I said before, and hopefully what coalesced would be something far more scientific, far more objective. I don't know, man. I want us to, to build, to be additive. And I, and people keep calling me and going, can you prove this? Can you prove that? Can you prove this? And it's like, we already did. We already did. Every week, it's the same crap. And so I want to know why that's the thing that ufology, ufology itself is so interested in. Why do they want to know what's in my garbage? Why do I have to make my fence taller and putting cameras in my house? Why am I getting people knocking on my door thinking I have secrets? I don't have their secrets, man. And that's something I don't think people understand. This isn't a movie. It's not, we, we may be seen as larger than life by other people, but I'm this size. You know what I mean? You know, I get up in the morning, I do all the same things we all do. I feel like crap, you know, and I should exercise more and eat better. And I don't, I'm a real person. I'm not a figure. That's, that's something the public does themselves. I'm not, I'm not even a subject matter expert. I'll go out on a limb and say that myself, because we don't have an established curriculum in this. We choose our subject matter experts by, by, by the, how they perform. And so far ufology has chosen subject matter experts that make them feel good, that tell them the story that fits their memory, their experience, their favorite flavor, their favorite story. And all of the research that I've done, I can't find one person out there that I would go, let's get them on board. They can help us. There's so, because everybody I talked to goes, it's the Zetas, right? And I'm like, man, no, there's, I don't know. I don't know what a Zeta is. I got a book at home with 175 different alien species listed out in it. And it's sponsored by MUFON. And it's the most ridiculous bunch of science fiction I've ever seen in my life. And I'm like, why did MUFON put their name on this? Those are, I know MUFON people as individuals, caring, pragmatic, dedicated, investigators. Some of them are amateurs. Some of them are professionals, again, like us, own money, own time, own effort. Why would they expose themselves? To Zeb's cornucopia of alien jackasses. I don't get it. How do we break off from the nonsense? Because I can't do it anymore. I know Lue can't do it anymore. So that's, I would throw that question back to you and your audience. How do we change this? Let me see if I understand this, because I don't want there to be a misunderstanding by the people who are watching you. You're not upset at the people who are asking questions, nor are you upset at me, nor are you unbreakable. No, no, no, we're not even upset. Yeah, it's more about that the types of questions indicate that the UFO community at large is either misguided or misled and there are opportunity costs as well. So they could be focusing on something that you feel like is more productive. Let me, if I can reiterate, this is not the frustration by Sean and I, is definitely not directed towards you or anybody in your audience or the person asking the question. They're legitimate and they're good questions. What we are frustrated with is the habitual tendency to go back and discuss things that are not only not relevant, but have been implanted as falsehoods to begin with by people in the past. And these things continue to resurface. Well, okay, that's fine, Lue. We're talking about potentially, you know, another incident from an F-35, but what about the reptilians? What does it have to do with reptilians? Guys, we're not talking about reptilians, man. I mean, stop, please. Try your best to remove whatever you may have learned in the past about this and say, well, I've been researching this for 30 years. And you know what? You've been researching fiction. So a lot of this stuff has been fictionalized. You know, you're not an expert in reading someone else's book. That doesn't make you an expert. I'm sorry. And so you've got to learn to approach this a little bit more objectively. And this is why we are loathsome to offer our position and perspective, because at the end of the day, I don't want to be guilty of the same thing. It doesn't matter what Lue Elizondo thinks. It doesn't matter what Sean thinks. What matters is what you think. Here's the data. Here's the facts. You figure it out for yourself, what this means to you, what to your religion, your culture, your philosophy, your psychology, sociology, and everything else in between. How you identify with this information is up to you. It's not my job to tell you what to think about. My job is simply to provide you the information and the evidence, and you figure it out for yourself and your family and your friends and however else you want to do it. But don't superimpose that on me. Please don't do that. I don't do that on you. Please don't do that to me, because it's not fair. And I think it's a distraction to the bigger conversation we're having. Every time I look at social media, I am blown away at how people behave and treat each other and the self-delusion. I mean, I have people that are making up entire conversations they've had with me that I've never spoken to the person in my life. And they're going around, and it's not healthy. It's not healthy. And then those require numerous tweets and backpedaling. And it seems like that's the desire of certain folks, is to make sure, just like a lot of folks would observe in our own society, that if you create enough chaos, it creates a system that you can exploit and that will be self-perpetuating. And at this point, and Curt, I'm not accusing you of this, and I'm not accusing your audience of it. I'm just taking a chance at this point to say that. Let me hit the bathroom real quick, by the way. Go ahead. I'm not ducking out, but I got to use the bathroom. This has been really tough for us because it's a tough decision to decide whether or not to participate at the level that folks want, because we want to keep talking to everybody. You know what I mean? But I'm not getting any work done when I do this. So I'm not attacking you guys, your audience, but no, we can... I didn't feel attacked. I have a feeling some people would think you were attacking, so I want to clear the air. A lot of people are triggered very easily. A lot of people get very offended when they don't hear what they want. I'll come out and say that. People in our community, our larger community, have some pretty skewed expectations. They have an immense lack of... Those who didn't serve in the military have no clue what it's like. Those who haven't worked in government service have no clue what it's like. I had somebody recently ask me, do you have any pay stubs that say you did the following? I'm like, man, my pay stubs say USN for the last 20 years. I was in the United States Navy. They never said chief petty officer or interrogator or police officer. And we spend a lot of time answering dumb questions like that. People don't even know what they're talking about. I'm going to put it just like that. I'm not talking about your audience. I'm just taking a chance to say why we're frustrated with some stuff. Because I would love... I mean, we talked about having a couple of beers and having a groovy, esoteric conversation. But I got to say that the way that some of these have been formed is I don't believe in gotcha questions. There aren't gotcha questions. There's gotcha people. There's people that get got and don't take the time to answer a question utilizing their acumen, or there's people that take their time through it. But are they useful? And we're just encountering so much non-additive interaction at this point because we're saturated. Saturated with interviewers, saturated with questions and stuff. And so for me, I just want to get across to people that we're willing to work as hard as possible. But at some point, we have to decide whether our work, the work that we're doing is additive. That's the word that I use most often. And Curt, I'll tell you too, if I can, you know, be very mindful that even yourself, right? We're doing this show right now. We're talking to you and your audience. And there are people that are trying to sabotage or hijack this conversation. Use this conversation we're having with you to push their own agenda and their own narrative. Right now, you're seeing it live on your chat. People that have ulterior motives and agendas and are looking to construe and misconstrue information. And the very thing that we are against, you're witnessing it right now. It's happening right now as you and I are having this conversation. And it's happening because people are taking advantage of this to push a narrative or an agenda. And I think that's disappointing. I think it's exactly what Sean and I and others are opposed to who take this topic very seriously. We're not trying to create a Jerry Springer environment. And sadly, as it is, you're witnessing the very thing that we're against happening right now, right now on your chat room as we speak. And this goes exactly to the point I'm trying to make. People aren't interested in a discussion. They're interested in drama. They're interested in the soap opera. And I don't want to be involved in that. You want to do that, be that. But I've got more important shit to do than to be part of that. That he said, she said crap. That's not what I'm interested in. And if that's what other people are interested in, then spend your time doing that. But please don't waste my time because I'm not into that. I've got far more important priorities on my plate than to jump into a virtual mosh pit with people who aren't interested in really doing anything, accomplishing anything. All they want to do is sling mud. And I mean, that's certainly the right and privilege if they want to do that. But don't involve me. I'm not interested in that. I'm interested in real discussion, elevated conversation, treating people with dignity and respect, not the dog pile that we're seeing. Unfortunately, this topic seems to bring out the best and in some cases, the worst of individuals. We beat that horse to death. I mean, I know that I'm the one that led it into the stable. But let's move on. Yeah, let's go ahead. Okay, so how about this question, which hopefully it's a question that you all don't dislike intensely. It's Raishu. Raishu asked this question, Curt, what is the environment that they refer to when they're saying that they created it to attract the phenomenon? Remember earlier when we were talking about communicating? Yeah, that's a great question. No. You know, [Ra Shu] How did the gov't "attract" UFOs? I'll answer this generally. I think a lot of people already kind of know what I'm kind of what I'm alluding to. But we've known that there have been been interesting correlations between nuclear technology capabilities, whatnot, and UAP activity. So clearly, if you can create an environment where you can potentially attract these things, then you can probably collect more data on these things. And so, you know, therein lies part of the key. If you can create a situation where maybe these things come because they're interested in what you have, then you can collect information. That's about as much as I'm prepared to say right now. But I think a lot of people kind of know historically, if you look at Robert Hastings' book, the nukes and UFOs, you know, there's a lot of compelling data in there. Sean, you have anything to add to that? I mean, I'll throw some redneck metaphors out there and say you don't go to Alabama to catch a hippopotamus. I see. Yes, Nick D says, over the timeframe that you researched and investigated UAPs, did you see the UAPs improve, like faster speeds, more daring maneuvers, capabilities over time? In other words, is there evidence that their technology has advanced? [NICK D] Has UAP technology advanced? It's one of those, it assumes that I have observed, you know, it assumes a lot, but nope, not in my lifetime. I can't even say what their technology truly does. So it's a hard question to answer. Yeah, same to me. Nor with me. I haven't seen any indicators that their technology has changed or necessarily improved. A lot of the observations we see now are the same. I mean, you know, we've seen a lot of the observations we see now are the same ones that were made in the, quite frankly, in the sixties and even the fifties. Blaine Totarian asks, in the GQ interview, Lue, you mentioned that a pilot experienced 30 minutes go by on his watch, but only consumed five minutes of fuel in his jet. Did you happen to find any corroborating evidence in the form of fuel log discrepancies or chronographic anomalies on the jet? Any tips for forming a FOIA request on this? [Blaine Toderian] Missing time Yeah, there's actually been several experiences like that reported by eyewitnesses, military sources. There's one very compelling, I won't say the person's name, but he was on a mountaintop and felt like just a few minutes went by and five hours had gone by. You know, this is the whole missing time, right? The observation that some people report to have that what appeared to be just a few minutes in reality was much, much longer. And there's also a lot of reporting from foreign pilots as well and foreign military personnel. So this isn't just a US thing. There's other individuals who have experienced this as well. The problem, it's very hard to reconcile because, you know, at some point, human observation is subjective, you know, and I think we have to be careful. I think it's a data point, but as Sean likes to say all the time, at the end of the day, it's just a data point. You know, it's in the collection of many, many data points that allows us to create a much more comprehensive picture. So I'm always careful not to just use a single data point. And that's why from the perspective of AATIP, the observables were so important because you had five distinct, actually six distinct observables that when put together painted a very compelling picture. You know, one could say, well, we have hypersonic vehicles or we have vehicles that can do instantaneous acceleration or low observability, but we don't have one that can do all five, right? And so that's when it becomes very compelling. And the same thing with the biological effects. In this case, if you have missing time, then that is potentially biological or a psychological effect. And that's something that you now see in the law. You know, we have to report on biological effects. Recently, this is a question that I have. George Knapp revealed that Area 51 has a multitude of names like Paradise Ranch and The Ranch and Red Square. I wrote a couple of them else down, St. Elsewhere, Home Plate, Homey Airport, the site. So have you heard George Knapp revealed new names for Area 51 of these? And can this information be used for a FOIA request? Curt, I lost you entirely here. For some reason, my headphone went out for a second. Can you repeat that again? Worst comes to worst happens again, I'll switch to these these ugly things. George Knapp revealed that Area 51 has many names, Paradise Ranch, The Ranch, Red Square, Home Plate, etc. Have you heard of these? I assume that these were governmental names. So I'm curious if this information if it can be used for a FOIA request. And also, why do you think it has so many names? Does it mean that there are multiple government organizations operating there? I think all information can be used for FOIA. We have names for New York, we call it the Big City, we call it the Big Apple, we call it all sorts of things. Organizations over time give names. Some of it's for real reasons, like OPSEC, we call operational security. If you want to keep saying people that were in the CIA, I can say this, but everybody will say, oh, he's went to the farm. The farm is not really the name of it. But that's what you call it. Same thing with Area 51, or Groom Lake, or whatever non-dijour you want to use. There's lots of reasons why people do that. Some of it, again, is for true operational reasons, because you don't want to use something's real name, and you want to use it in conversation. It's somebody who's also read on to the law. Let's say, Curt, you and Sean and I were part of a program, and you can't ever say the program's name, so you call it something else. Hey, we got to go talk about the elephant tomorrow. Elephant being a code word for the program. Those are the type of things that are quite common, especially in the military, when you're talking about military facilities and organizations. It's super, super common. For example, when I was in the Army in Korea, South Korea, you have the 2nd ID, 2nd Infantry Division up on the DMZ, but we called it the Deuce. Was it that its official name? No, but everybody referred to it as the Deuce. It's quite common. Sean, you got any? I'd say foil what you like and see what you get back. I would ask them if they have any interest in what Area 1 through 57 are called as well, because all of those test ranges exist, too. I don't know what the exact number is, but Area 51 was not picked out of nowhere. It's a grid marker. Is it a test facility? It would seem that that's been acknowledged during Bill Clinton's administration. Aerial photos came out for the first time, and that's how we got into the idea that Area 51 was even a real place and that it was a test range. But past that, I don't know. I appreciate George's work. Don't get me wrong. I would never in a million years doubt anything. George is incredible. He is an edifice to this subject. He is one of the most valuable intellects and archives and has some of the best understanding of anyone around here. I think that if George Knapp found a bunch of names that were associated with the Nevada test site, if you were into FOIA, I think that's a good person to look to to find keywords. But beyond that, I don't know what Area 51 does beyond test aircraft for Nellis Air Force Base. And yes, I know that there are certain terminals and airlines and all these other things that like to go back and forth. Stories. I don't have proof. If I had proof, I'd be on. I'd call you up and we'd have a really cool show. If I was like, look, bro, I got proof, you know, and so I won't talk about it like I have proof until I have proof. OK, this question comes from Cyprian Siganik. Among all the UAP incidents you've investigated, which one stands out to you? For me, it's the 2004 Nimitz tic-tac incident because we have the most comprehensive multispectral data on it. [Cyprian Cyganek] UAP incidents that stood out to you. Now, do we have access to all of that? Nope. But we at least have the rational stories or excuse me, anecdotes and a certain paper trail to follow that says that those tapes were taken. And so the first thing that says to me is in 2004, there was a program running that was ready to respond to incidences like this, at least to debrief and retrieve ELINT data. But that's that's all I know. But to me, that's the most interesting because we can nail down the most the most comprehensive pieces of an investigation, something worthwhile occurred and that there's more information out there that we can. That we could get on it, we could clarify if we had that information, we would know a lot more. And it's multi, you know, I say multispectral. I want to be careful when I say that I'm saying multipoint. Multipoint. So to me, that's the most interesting one. And granted, I was there. I don't think my eyewitness account is the most interesting thing of it. I think it's way towards the bottom of the list. It's completely unprovable. But that's my one. I'd be interested to hear what it has to say. I said before, it's like choosing my favorite kid, right? I love them all. I find something interesting in every single of the incidents that I've been privy to. Some are very, very compelling. Some are a bit more anecdotal. Some are, you know, as I've said before, I can't provide more than other than saying there's a 23 minute video that's really, really, really compelling. You know, those are the ones that leave you really scratching your head saying, what the hell did I just see? You know, my hope is that some of these incidents become more and more prevalent and people in office, particularly Congress, are successful in getting some of this stuff declassified, that some of the more compelling videos and incidents will become more public knowledge. And then you can have that conversation, right? Then I can ask you the same question. Which one is your most compelling incident? Right now, there's so many of them. And some of them are just truly baffling. But, you know, unfortunately, most of it I really can't talk about yet in the public sphere, which for me is very frustrating. Sure. Which one stands out that you can talk about? Would it be the Nimitz as well? Well, the Nimitz was certainly one of the most comprehensive investigations. That thing went on for a while. There were several investigations. There's a lot of documentation reporting on it. A lot of it was made public. I think it's, you know, it's certainly one of the gold standards for the U.S. government as far as investigations. But there's a lot more. I mean, Chris will tell you the story about him seeing an email from somebody, this very senior ranking person in the Navy, basically saying, I got these things all over my ship. What do you want me to do? You know, I can't keep people below deck forever. I mean, people are going to see these things. How do you want me to do? What do you want me to do about this? Right. Because it's very prevalent. And this is going to be this won't be able to be kept secret for very long. So, you know, that's an example of just sheer frustration. In some cases, you're like, you know, we've got to get a handle on this. We really do. We've got to figure this out. This is about the ocean. Casey Price wants to know regarding USO, so unidentified submerged objects. Have you seen underwater photographs or video that support that they exist? Well, first of all, photographic evidence underwaters is a much different story than photographic evidence in the sky. First of all, water is opaque. Water is very dense. Light doesn't travel very well. In fact, in a very crystal crystal, I'm an avid scuba diver on a crystal clear day in some of the best Caribbean waters in the world. Your visibility is maybe 120 feet if you're lucky. And that's not really that far. If you think about it, you know, it is when you're diving. But but it's not really that far. And so so we have to rely on other technical means to to to, if you will, see virtually underwater. [Casey Price] Photographs to support that USOs exist (unidentified submerged objects) And we use things like sonar. We use very much like we talked about earlier, the same principles that that dolphins use to echolocate. We do that as well, using submarines and ships. And we can see below the water virtually. We're not actually seeing, but we're we are creating an image, a virtual image that allows us, you know, to see the bottom of the ocean and what's in between, whether it's through side scanning, sonar or other means. The problem is that sound also travels only at a certain speed underwater. So you're only going to sonar can only pick up and be used to to to pick up objects that are going at least as fast or slower than the sonar signals. Otherwise, it outruns it. Right. And you never you never catch up. So there's limitations. And that's why you have the quote unquote silent service of submarines, why they're so stealthy, because, you know, here you have basically something the size of a skyscraper underwater that no one ever sees because it's hard to see underwater. Now, does that mean we have technical data, you know, beyond just, you know, images, for example, what you might see underwater? Yeah, there seems to be some pretty compelling information down there to suggest that that UAP may also be related to USOs and that the two may in fact be very, very related, very much related and that objects that are flying in and around our skies, well, flying isn't really the right term, but in and around our atmosphere may also have the ability to perform similarly underwater. And this is where the transmedium travel piece comes into as far as the five observables, things that have the ability to fly with the same performance characteristics in our atmosphere as they can underwater and possibly even in space. You know, we do have technologies that are transmedium, we have, for example, a seaplane, you know, seaplane can fly and it can also float on the water. But let's face it, a seaplane isn't really a good aircraft or a really good boat, it's a compromise, because in order to operate in more domains or more environments, you have to accommodate more things, more considerations, and there's always sacrifices, performance sacrifices associated with that. And you would never expect a seaplane to fly like an F-22 or operate like a submarine, because it just can't, it's just too much. And yet that's precisely what we're seeing here in some cases with these UAP. In the Navy we have a term called scuttlebutt, and it's something that in general the leadership tries to cut down on scuttlebutt, but it's rumored. And so what I'm about to give you a scuttlebutt, because I won't give you names, I'm not going to help folks, and I won't even say what platforms I talk to folks from, because you could easily trace folks. Not you, I'm not saying you would either, I'm just not going to... One good example. Yeah. But I've talked to my numerous senior enlisted leaders, sonar technicians, and it's practically, you know, they'll look left, they'll look right, and they'll be like, that's an open secret. We all know there are USOs, we all know there are things that we're picking up on sonar, just like your radar techs are like, yeah, we've all seen UFOs, you don't talk about them. You just keep, you know, you talk about the aircraft and your pattern, make sure there's no safety violations, and everybody laughs it off. And, you know, some people don't even make log entries. The sonar techs are going through the same thing. So I'll throw that, it's scuttlebutt. I can't verify it. I'm not going to haul any of them up here on the show for you. And they already told me they don't want to get involved. They got their own jobs. They're not willing to risk any of it for this stuff. But the word on the street is it's an open secret. And what a couple of the guys have told me is we're told to log it and dog it. What that means is, in some cases in the old days, I mean, you put it in the log and then you lined it out. So it was no longer an official entry. In this case, it is morphed into don't even write it down because they're not going to do anything about it. Now, that's, as I said, that's scuttlebutt. That's rumor. But I've collected that from numerous disparate sources. So I wouldn't put- That's very accurate, what Sean is telling you. And there was a, I can say there was, because there was an article on it about the Navy's, what they call, people are familiar with the fast walker program. But I'm not sure people are familiar so much with the fast mover program. And that was an article. If anybody cares to look it up, you can look it up. It's about the Navy's collection of data regarding, incidentally, of USOs. And I'll include a link to that in the description. So for those who are watching or listening, you can check out the description for that. So Brian asks, how important is sound to the advanced physics theories about the UAPs? Now, this is interesting because usually we hear about gravity, light, and so on. Have you heard anything about sound being essential rather than simply an effect? [Bryan] Importance of sound to the advanced physics theorized for UAP I'll jump on that. One of my colleagues, Chris Mellon, is working very hard right now trying to acquire data from infrasonics. You know, things entering the Earth's atmosphere give off an acoustic signature, whether it's an asteroid or meteor or ballistic missile, per se. Everything has signatures, an aircraft. You can sit in your backyard, look at an airplane going over, and you can hear the jet engine. There are acoustic signatures associated with these things, and infrasonics is part of that. And as Chris suggested in his most recent article, that there is data available potentially that could help us better understand the nature of UAPs if we had the ability to access that data and if we knew what we were looking for. So yeah, it's a great question, and it's something that is being looked into. Speaking of accessible data, this question comes from Rebecca Schwart. Thank you to all three of you for your time. Question. Are you aware of any civilian-based data collection slash analysis efforts worth looking into further? What civilian accessible data would you advise collecting? [Rebeca Schwardt] Civilian data collection efforts At the moment, I would first point to Dr. Avi Loeb, his efforts being done at the Galileo Project. Beyond that, I'm not prepared to say any names out there. I do have some colleagues that we've worked with that we've helped advise on a couple of projects that are interested in data collection, collating that data and providing it as needed. I don't think we could have enough data collection. While you'll hear me talk about too many podcasts, we need more data collection companies. We need more people that are going to attack the electromagnetic spectrum from every possible vantage point that they can and then think of other means to sample our reality for replicatable or at least recordable data. I don't push other people's businesses. I don't do that. There are people working very hard that have come very far, that have made a lot of relationships and have built an infrastructure in the last couple of years because they were paying attention. I really look forward to seeing what they have to offer soon. There's a question here from Joe Mergia. He has a podcast called UFO Joe, which I'll link in the description. Have you come across any information that you deem credible that Holloman was a real event? Now the claims for those who are unfamiliar is that a craft of unknown origin landed at... Holloman AF base in 1964. [Joe Murgia] Holloman base Humanoid looking beings got out and were whisked away off to a meeting with the military brass at the base, then left. So what's your opinion on the aspects of these claims? Read the same stories everyone else has read in UFOlogy. You know, I'll tell you that the problem is we don't know what's been, what is based in a real event and then what has been added to a story, right? So usually a lot of stories are based in some fact. The question is how much fact, right? Did something happen at Holloman Air Force Base? And if so, what? And did all these other things that happened later, you know, is it just a story that grew and grew and grew and grew and snowballed into what we hear now? Or was it all based in truth or partial truth? And so, you know, that's something that is trying to be determined. That, you know, the problem was with these cold cases that the longer the time goes on, the harder it gets. This is, you know, 50 years ago. And most of the people who have any would be involved in that may be dead by now. So it's hard. And so that's why in AATIP, we really were focusing on the here and now, if you will, on incidents involving military equities now or in the present. Because going back to these, it's, you almost don't know where to start, right? Because it's kind of gone, it's gone now into the world of mythology where, you know, people say certain things, but I heard it through this person who heard it through that person who was someone who was stationed there, who saw the video, who saw the... It's hard. And so I'm not going to comment on that simply because A, I wasn't there and I don't know. But I will say that it is certainly interesting. And, you know, obviously we keep our feelers out for anybody who wants to come forward, who may have additional information regarding that event. If they want to share it, we'd love to hear it. Okay, this question is from Andy from That UFO Podcast. Thanks to the three of you. And what more needs to be done to encourage those in the mainstream to get involved with data collection? Well, so we'll start with Sean. Well, frankly, that's what I'm working on every day. [Andy McGrillen] How can we get more involved with data collection? It's cutting the nonsense we've been, frankly, complaining and borderline ranting about on this podcast, cutting it out, not entertaining it anymore. Frankly, I don't care, go start your own show. You know what I mean? You want to find out all the secrets of the various universe, go for it. We want to collect data. And so we talk to people. As I often say, we'd say, this is real. Here are some excellent data points to look at. What are your thoughts? Do you see merit here? They say, yes, I see merit. Would you like to help us collect more data and try to understand this? I mean, I'm presenting this in a very vague fashion, but it's that simple. Hey, can I have your attention? This is real. Would you like to get involved? Yes or no. Some people have said no. They said, you know what? We're already in a good place. We have good contracts here. We're in a place like this. We don't want to mess with our, we don't want to spook our clientele or our investors or whatever it is. And it's understandable. But some people see this for what it is, that something's different. I've never liked the question, why now? I don't know. Now, I only have now, as I said earlier in our conversation. But it's interesting. And so I hope that's the license. Lue. Yeah, can you, I want to be accurate as possible. Can you repeat the question, please? You want to know what people could do to encourage data collection in the private sector at a higher level? I mean, it's a tough question because, I mean, I would say anything people can do is helpful. But then again, that's not entirely true every time because not everything is helpful. You know, I think being aware of the conversation, you know, everybody now has one of these devices in their hands, right? So you're a virtual collection platform, taking videos, pictures and whatnot. I think being informed, arming yourself with knowledge and information. And yes, it may seem contradictory, but it requires talking to people, you know? And by the way, formulating your own opinions as a result of that, okay? Don't take somebody else's opinions. And understanding the playing field, you know? Who's legitimate, who's not, what are the motivations, what are the things that you're trying to do? Who's legitimate, who's not, what are the motivations? And by certain organizations and people that may be involved in this topic, why do some people have the opinions that they do? Maybe, you know, it's hard for me to say because you're asking people to teach themselves. And they say, okay, well, teach me how to teach myself. Well, then again, if I do that, then we fall into the same pit we did last time where I'm teaching you what to think and not how to think. And so I don't wanna be overly prescriptive. Just be curious, be yourself, ask the questions. It's okay to ask the questions. I think be fearless in your pursuit of knowledge and also have the courage to question, question people, including myself, including Sean, including you, including everybody. Questions aren't bad, questioning is good. Now, disrespect and attacks, no, that's not, you know, that's not ever something that should be supported or condoned. Sadly, it is. If you're gonna ask somebody a question about their opinion, make damn sure you know what yours is first and be willing to state it and stand behind it and be willing to change it if the other person's opinion and their data change is yours. But holding an opinion, asking questions, and I'm not talking about you again, Curt. (Continued) The frustration about the topic I'm just saying a lot of times in this field, it's so combative that people wield questions like swords and use petty excuses for shields. It's important that we all have a good, we wanna have a conversation. We don't wanna have an interrogation session. We wanna have a conversation where we're all educated enough to bring the conversation to a new level, to rise to something new and to create something new. And so that's why a lot of times we, yeah, again, we get posed a lot of questions that I'm not sure if the person asking it already expects a specific answer or is looking to learn, I guess. So- I would also say, be prepared to challenge the hucksters and the fraudsters and the liars. You know, when someone is spewing off their opinion and they've been confirmed to be a liar and lied about things in the past, then, you know, hold them accountable. Say, hey, you know, you said this before and you got caught lying or deceiving or not telling the truth. Why should we believe you now? Right? There's people out there pretending they're spies. There's people out there recording private conversations. There's people out there making up conversations and claiming data that's so far beyond the pale, it's ridiculous. And they're doing all of it to maintain some kind of attention return on investment that they need. And I just don't understand it. And there's, we have a whole community that has this passive aggressive conversation on the undertone about who's doing what, who's who in the zoo and who's treating people poorly. And then everybody turns around and go, well, hey, Bob, so good to be back on your show again. And what's new this week? And it's because everybody's afraid of their reputation. Everybody's afraid of, you know, they're all looking in their own, they're looking at each, all of their neighbor's bulls to see what they have in them instead of worrying about what's going on with them. And it gets tiresome. I'm sorry, this keeps coming up, but it's. There's no accountability. You know, it's a situation where you have people who are self-proclaimed experts and qualified experts when they're certainly not. And who have been shown in the past to be frauds. And so, you know, it's, to be frauds and, you know, no one holds them accountable. They, and they continue to sow dissension and discord throughout the community. And there's not a whole lot of them, but there's a few of these agent provocateurs and they're not held accountable. And they're allowed to continue to spew their vile and their misinformation and tarnish the reputation of people who really are engaged in this topic in a very serious manner. And I think that's a problem. I think until those people are held accountable, we're gonna continue to have this situation that we have now. It's because people willing to kind of turn a blind eye and they say, well, okay, let's get it. Well, at some point, you know, people, when they wonder why don't people take this topic seriously, you gotta look in the mirror at some point. You gotta say, hey, you know, maybe you're the problem. Maybe I'm the problem, right? And it's hard to do. You got it, but holding people accountable and holding yourself accountable is I think very, very important. You know, every time I make a mistake, I try the first time someone brings it up to me, I'm like trying to get online. Hey guys, listen, I made a mistake. You know, let me clarify our caveat. We've got to hold ourselves accountable. I almost guarantee you if I can that somewhere, whether today or tomorrow or in the chat or whatever, someone's gonna say, well, why don't you just name the names and do the thing? Look, I'm not here to hold people accountable. I'm here to advance the conversation. If I start, if you want me to hold people accountable, cool, we'll put the whole conversation on hold while I go into a fricking legal slog for the next 10 years of my life holding those people accountable all by my damn self. Okay, the audience needs to hold each other accountable. Self-policing our peers is the first part of our society. I mean, come on, even in the Navy. I was a master at arms. I was a law enforcement officer on board a ship. Why did we need a law enforcement officer? We had a leadership structure. They should have been taking care of all these things. But in the end of the day, we're all just humans. We need police, unfortunately, at some level. Whole nother societal argument. I don't want to peel that crap off, but I just think we can, what we're talking about here is, look, you don't need your subject matter experts to be generalists. You don't need your generalists to get mired in the minutia of the data. They need to trust the experts. And in this case, too, we need to look to each other and go, is this what we want? Is this the community that we want to maintain? Or can we take a break from the constant daily drip? Can we wait for things to develop? And can we start figuring out, outside of the subject matter experts that we've appointed, how do we feel about this? And what do we really believe? What are our answers to these questions? What do we think about Holloman? Have we looked into it? Does it look like nonsense or not? The next person who tells me, you know, the moon's hollow. Oh my God. I'm just like, could you start somewhere else with me besides, hey, did you know the moon is hollow? To show me that you've done your research. And we don't have a baseline for that. So, yeah. Let me jump in here too. Let me give you a real case scenario about holding ourselves accountable, okay? I don't have your chat on here, but you know, you asked, perfect case in point. You asked Sean and I to come on and drink a beer for your show, okay? So I thought it'd be fun to grab this. Now, what you don't know and your audience doesn't know that last night I emptied this out and I filled this with apple juice, right? So no, I'm not gonna drink on your show, but if it helps the conversation, everybody get going to be fun. Yeah, sure. Go ahead. I'll put a beer bottle in then. But it was filled with apple juice. God's honest truth. And of course, what do people start accusing instantly? Oh, these guys are toasted. They're sloshed. This is my point. People are so used to coming out and just spewing crap when they don't know. They have no clue and they spew it out as facts. And then other people pick it up and say, oh, that must be right. No, they're toasted. You know what? I have 0% alcohol in my body right now. Zero. I've been drinking coffee most of the time and apple juice. This is my point, the problem with ufology and all these people out there that supposedly know shit, they don't know anything. And now of course, oh, look at Lue, he's yawning and he must be drunk or toasted. I am stone-ass cold sober. And this is, you know, so here's my case in point. And of course they don't know, Curt, that you had asked us to come on your show and we'd all get relaxed and have a beer, right? Well, yeah. Okay, sure. I'm drinking a beer bottle, but I'm not drinking beer. And so this is, again, this is just a very small example of how people who don't have all the information will jump to a conclusion as if they do have it. And then that will pick up legs. People pick it up and say, oh, you think? Oh, you're right. Oh my gosh. I want no part of that shit. I want no part of it. That's exactly what is wrong with this community. And I'm sorry, I don't wanna be part of that. I don't wanna be part of logic and rationale. I don't wanna be part of speculation and innuendos and I think, or I maybe, or I'm not interested in that. And this is my problem. This is exactly why I'm frustrated with it because it's a bunch of rank ass amateurs that aren't helping the conversation. Now, if you really wanna help the conversation, have the conversation with us and stop speculating and stop trying to provide false narratives that aren't there and they're not real. Well, to me, that's entertainment. And it's about time we left that entertainment to the people that wanna entertain themselves. Agreed. I agree, you're right. It's entertainment. I've experienced probably 1% of what you've all experienced and it's already. It already hurts me. I have a thin skin. I'm not like you all. As I was joking before, I'm not a man like you all are. And so I've experienced, well, I won't get into different details. It's not about Linda Moulton Howe or anything else. And some people thought that I planned what I said to Linda Moulton Howe as a gotcha question. And then they were saying, well, why don't you interview other women? I'm saying, did you not browse through the channel? How about Mathuna? How about Meryl Kindert? How about Sabine Hossenfelder or Rebecca Goldstein and so on. And then I feel like, oh, and then I'm justifying myself. And then that makes it worse because it gives, they don't see it as, as, they're not terribly interested in. And I'm speaking extremely vaguely when I say they, because some people are, they actually just are questioning and, and maybe they're just incorrect, and maybe they're passionate and, and that's, and that's fine. But some people, they want to get you and they probably already have a reason to dislike you. Well, I'm also just speaking about myself, even though I'm using the word you. But anyway, I'm following, I'm tracking. Continue, please. Yeah. No, it's not a pleasant place to be. I don't like it. And I, it affects me deeply. It affects me a bit too much. Like, I get to you and Linda, to an extent, being pushed from both sides by an angry mob. There's an unfortunate aspect when you reach a certain level of exposure. Unless you're going to put some kind of Gestapo-like filter on your, on your chats and things like that, you're going to be exposed to people that are going to do things like that. And I'm going to, I'm going to bust your chops for saying you're not a man. You're most certainly a man. Don't, don't do that to yourself, my friend. But beyond that, I'm going to tell you something when I'd, I'd rather have your thin skin because mine's scarred over. I'm not, I'm not quiet or calm. I am. I am. I'm, I'm beaten and bruised by this stuff. I've had friends of mine, people who were formerly my colleagues and my friends, try to hurt myself and my family and dox me on the internet on 4chan and put my personal information out there. So my phone number is useless if I want to keep it. And I'm, I'm not going to write an article about that, man. And I don't want to talk about that for too long on the show, but I'm tired and I'm hurt and I'm going to keep working. I just may not keep doing it on a camera, you know? And you've got, you know, at some point you've got to ask yourself too, all of us do, why are we doing this? And if I'm able to, if it turns out that maybe I'm doing it for the wrong reasons or the wrong people, am I able to tailor that back and still maintain my own integrity? I hope so. On loving your enemy, extending a hand despite hate, and Curt's journey in this topic Yeah. Yeah. It's something I think about plenty. And there's also this question that sometimes people or an accusation more than a question, which is, don't you have a responsibility to do X? And usually those come from people who don't have a large platform and they'll say, well, look, you have a large platform. So you have a responsibility to talk about X or to not talk about Y. And that's so tricky because who determines my responsibility. Right, right, right. There's that. And outside of something that's legal, like a signed document, it's difficult to say that you're responsible for something. Although I do agree that most of the time, whenever anyone lays that upon me, I do think that I am responsible for most of what they say I am responsible for. Like I'm responsible for putting out positive and constructive information. I don't think I am. And I think I'm failing in my responsibility at almost all of what they say. It's just that I don't know how to live up to all of that. And I also feel like sometimes some people want me to say, yeah, but this guest said so-and-so and that's false. And don't you want to correct that? And I would love actually thinking about putting in a corrections segment to the introductions of the videos. But also at the same time, if I spent my time constantly correcting, I feel like then someone would say, aren't you failing in your responsibility to provide new information now? So there are there are opportunity costs associated with the responsibility. And it's almost I feel like every individual has infinite responsibility. So that's why I feel like what they're saying is true. And I just say that I'm failing at my responsibility. I don't know what else to do about that, other than to follow my own curiosity and to try to be honest and earnest. And that's what I try to do. And that's why some of these questions I'm asking you, you see what's wrong with them. But for me, I'm such a newcomer that I'm like, what's the big deal about these questions? I think about these questions all the time. So I'm just trying to be honest and earnest, and hopefully loving at the same time. That's all I can do is follow my own interests. I know Sean's gonna jump in here in a second. Let me just say real quick, Curt, first of all, you're doing a great job. Second of all, don't forget everybody loves a show. Okay? There's a reason why gladiator fights were so successful in Rome. Part of it was a control mechanism to control the masses, right? Give them circus, give them bread. Human beings are for whatever reason, attracted to conflict. I don't know why. It's something that it may be deep in our DNA. Maybe it's part of the reptilian brain, no pun intended. But you know, something that for whatever reason, why we maybe watch, we watch Monday night football, because we like that head to head competition or boxing or whatever it is. You know, conflict seems to be an innate part of the human species. And whether we realize it or not, even when we're having an intellectual conversation like this, there are bound to be people that want to see conflict, whether it's conflict of ideas or conflict of morals or conflict of whatever principles. And I think we see that. I think we see where we have my team versus your team. And you know, at the end of the gladiator fight, thumbs up or thumbs down, yay or nay, right? And you will see it in the academic and scientific communities when people are proposing theories, and there's this fierce debate where people take it personally. You see it on the floors of Congress when people are debating there, you see it right here, right now, we're living through this. And we don't even realize we're engaged in this type of activity, because it's so human part of us to seek out this conflict. When, you know, people like Sean have been really helping people like me, try to step back, you know, from that, because look, my entire profession was conflict, right? Let's face it, government, military intelligence, your job is to outthink the enemy and win. And let's face it, you know, the rule of war isn't to create peace, the rule of war is to kill more enemies and they kill you. It's a very violent, brutal act. And so, it is part of what we are as a species, but let us recognize it. And let us control it rather than allowing it to control us would be my suggestion. Of course, that's a topic for a whole nother discussion at some point, maybe down in the future. But how do we remove ourselves from this self-generated conflict and rise above it? So, Sean, what do you think? I just wanted to say to you, man, that I really feel something you said, because I heard it in your voice and I saw it in your face, that people are telling you that you've been, that you have a responsibility. I want to break that down. They're saying you have, that you are holding a responsibility. And I say, no, you haven't. Responsibility comes, first of all, responsibility is taken. It's not given, it's taken. You've been offered opportunities. These people see that you've been offered opportunities and they feel a certain amount of righteous jealousy towards you. And they're saying to you, I'm not strong enough to do this. Somehow you've won this lottery, so you have a responsibility to carry out how I feel in my stead. Bullshit. You've been offered an opportunity. Your heart tells you where you're going to take responsibility. And then you give your whole heart to it. You give your whole acumen to it. Nobody's Superman. Nobody has everything covered. You know what I mean? So you have to do what's best for you. And you can't let people tell you, you have a responsibility. What is it? Where is it? Is it on the counter or is it hanging up with the coach? Because I missed it when I walked in. I found my jeans in my wallet, but not my responsibility. So pardon me for being kind of a smart aleck there, but I see that you're under the same kind of strain that we are, man. And you may walk in front of the mirror and say, I have a responsibility. Nobody else should be telling you, you have a responsibility besides your spouse or your children. I agree with that. And Curt, listen, this is something that you're probably going to face a lot more than most. And this goes for anybody in your audience too, that's under something similar. Okay. So this advice isn't just for you, Curt. And as you know, I don't offer advice very often. And it's advice I have to give myself and Sean has to give me and close friends who might have to give me constantly and my family. At the end of the day, you're doing what you feel in your heart is right. And people are going to ascribe all sorts of things. And by the way, there are some bad people in this world. Believe me, I've met some of them on the wrong end of a gun. There are truly some bad people in the world and they will, whether they're on the battlefield or in cyberspace, they will make themselves known and they will do whatever they can to hurt you. And this goes for people in your audience who are experiencing the same thing. They know there are people out there that want to hurt them. The question is why? What are these individuals out there that are trying to hurt people? What is their deficiency? What are they missing inside that causes them to have so much hatred towards other individuals? Is it jealousy? Is it pride and ego? Is it a lack of someone maybe early on in their life, giving them the attention or the emotional fulfillment that they need or the acknowledgement? Who knows? I mean, there's a lot of damaged units out there. I try to not confuse the difference between humans, which I don't particularly like, and humanity. I often tell people, I love humanity, it's humans I don't like very much. There's an old saying by Mel Torme and this is probably why I have so many dogs. He said, the more I get to know people, the more I like dogs. And I kind of understand that. But at the same time, it's also not fair for me to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There's a lot of people right now that are probably listening to your show that are genuinely just really good people. And they just want to know, man, they just want it to, hey, look, I'm just getting into this. I'm just hearing this for the first time. Is this shit real? They just want to know that. So, I guess my word of advice to you, Curtis, keep doing what you're doing and have the courage to face the bad people and call them out for what they are, not in a mean way, not to hurt them, not to do to them what they're trying to do to you, but simply to acknowledge that for what it is. And then hopefully continue doing what you do for the betterment of everybody else who really just wants answers. They enjoy being with you. They enjoy spending their time with you, listening to you and your guests on the show. And they just want to learn. You got to remember to do it for them. And by the way, I have to take my own advice too. So, I'm not immune to that. There's days that I say, screw it. These people aren't worth it. They're not worth it. Truth and freedom and all that stuff, they'll never evolve to deserve it. And then I've got to call myself off the ledge and say, okay, actually, you know what? They do. And I'm just pissed off because a few people that are jerks happen to have the loud voice when in reality, most of the majority is silent. Most of the good people are silent. It's the agitators that make most of the noise, but in reality, most of the people aren't that way. And I have to remind myself of that. For the people who are wondering, hey, I thought this was a conversation about UFOs. Well, UFOs, well, in some ways, this last hour has been a meta conversation about UFOs, because it's about the conversation about UFOs, much like when the physics community or some subset of the physics community criticizes string theory, because it's taken the lion's share of the money. Well, that's not a science conversation per se. It's a meta scientific conversation because it's about well, how are we going to divide this up? And there is plenty of conflict in this UFO community. But I know that you said they're bad people. I consider myself a part of that group. And some people would say, well, Curt, you're ingenuous. But yeah, but they don't see the malevolence and the egotism and the covetousness and the insecurity of myself. And I wouldn't say that they're bad people. Curt, you hear that? You're facing it. There's a difference. You are recognizing the fact that you're a human like the rest of us, and we are all subject to weakness. That's what makes us human. It's okay. But acknowledge it. I don't see you throwing stones at other people. I see you actually embracing that part of you and saying, look, I'm human and this is what I do. And that's humility and humbleness. That's not a bad trait. That's a strength, not a weakness. You just exhibited the fact that you can heal from anything. Literally, the last thing in the world that a narcissist can do is question themselves about possibly being a narcissist. The moment you step in front of the mirror and you go, am I the cloudy day? Dude, that is such an accomplishment. Just considering, hey, am I the a-hole here? Yeah. If you're considering it, maybe you were. And that means maybe you can overcome it. But later on, when you get down the road and you find the folks that can't find the mirror in the house, but are somehow always looking at it, those folks are on a different plane somehow. I don't understand it, but you're not there, man. You're considering yourself that and don't stop. Don't be too hard on yourself. But bro, the fact that you would turn around that quick and be like, hey, I'm a human being just like these people I'm accusing of being human. That's all it is. It's the grace we give each other after that moment of self-awareness that defines us. Curt, that's a superpower. The fact that you can look at yourself in the mirror and say, you know what? I don't like necessarily everything I see. And I probably need to change some things. That's not a fault, brother. That's a blessing. And I think we're all better off for it when we can look in the mirror and say, you know what? Sometimes I am weak. Sometimes I am selfish. Sometimes I am petty. Sometimes I'm fill-in-the-blank, whatever issue it is. The problem are for those individuals who can't do that, whether they truly are sociopathic individuals or they suffer from some sort of personality disorder or narcissism. That's the problem. Because then there is no help. Because they will never be able to self-reflect and change when ultimately that is the journey for all of us. We are all brought into an imperfect world. And hopefully we leave this world better than we found it. And that's really, in order to do that, you have to recognize that, hey, I'm not perfect. And I'm going to make a lot of bonehead mistakes. I'm going to hold myself accountable. I'm not going to flog myself necessarily. But I will hold myself accountable and truly learn the lesson. And when I make a mistake, I'll be damned if I make that same mistake again. I'm not going to say I'm never going to make mistakes. I'm going to make mistakes all the time. I'm human and I will. That's just part of the human condition. But learn from those, man. And don't repeat the same mistake. And have the courage, most importantly, to stand in front of the mirror and say, you know what? I don't like that about you. That's a weakness. You need to change. You need to work on it. That, to me, is a strength, not a weakness at all if you have the ability to do that, Curt. And clearly, clearly you do. I appreciate that. I think it's overly complimentary. I don't know if I deserve all that, but thank you so much. And I also think that, you know, this whole hating of humans, I know you said it glibly, like hating humans, loving humanity. And Seinfeld has a comment about that too. I don't know if that's possible. That's something I used to believe too. I don't know if it's possible to dislike a subset and like the whole. I think that somehow the view that one has for a tiny object or a tiny subset is somehow reflected in the whole. And I think that somehow, I know this sounds so hulky, man, but I think that somehow maybe our purpose, maybe this all sounds so woo. Go for it, man. Go for it. And peculiar, but maybe it's to meet hate with love and to love even those that you at least initially despise. Even if they're oppressing you, you love your oppressors. And even if they're wronging you, you love them. I think that somehow that's extremely integral. I think if you can do that, that's fantastic. Those are the life lessons that some of the great people that have walked this earth before us have tried to preach. We don't always practice it. I will tell you, I don't know if I agree necessarily that in order to love the whole, you have to love the constituent parts. There are many examples in reality where there are children that are born out of a horrible situation, whether it's rape or something else. And the child is a wonderful loving child, but the situation that created the circumstances that brought that child into this world were less than desirable. And you don't have to love the act of that in order to love the end result of that. That's just my opinion. I've witnessed within two minutes of each other, the best and worst humanity has to offer. And there are elements of our species that I really despise. And by the way, I'm subject to the same thing. So I'm not pointing my finger saying you humanity, I'm saying, hey, plus humanity. Yeah. But I do think that collectively, for the reason why, and I can't answer for anybody else or speak for anybody else. The reason why I do what I do is because it's those two minutes of beauty that I've seen the human species capable of. We are capable of such hatred and destruction towards each other, but we are also capable of such kindness and beauty. And that to me is worth saving. That is why I do what I do because those moments, those few precious moments, all of heaven, all angels sing when a good act is done and rejoice. And it's for that, that is worth saving the species for. That's what makes us so wonderful. Unfortunately, we are also our own devils and we do things that are very destructive towards each other and ourselves. And that's just part of the human condition. I think that's probably normal. In fact, maybe that's one of the reasons why we're here, perhaps, is to learn to rise above it. There are certainly certain religions that feel that way, that we're gonna continue coming back over and over again until we finally learn our lesson. Maybe that's the natural order of things. I don't know. But I do think that it's okay to be human, but we need to recognize when we are doing evil towards each other and we have to be willing to hold each other and ourselves accountable. And that's the life lesson. Thank you all for coming out to this. I appreciate it. It took an interesting turn and I hope a productive one. I think so. There was a time in about a month ago or so, or two months ago, when on Twitter, I was realizing that there's plenty of hate and I'm not saying I'm immune from this hate. Like if people saw what occurs in my mind, I think people would be extremely surprised at the egotism and selfishness and so on. Well, there is, I wouldn't say competing factions in the UFO content creator community, but there are different beefs. And I thought, you know, it'd be great if we could all, why don't we all just put that aside and just have beer, even though I'm drinking tea, but have beer and be on a collective Zoom call. Just put aside, extend the olive branch. So while this conversation may seem like it has nothing to do with UFOs, maybe, maybe, but maybe it's a more important conversation because it deals with what gives birth to the conversations about UFOs. Curt, how can you honestly have a question and a conversation and answers about potentially one of the most existential issues facing our species, if we don't even understand ourselves? How do you possibly expect to understand someone or something else or another species if we don't even understand how we work? They are the same. If you want, and this is why I kind of, and I'll shut up, I'll just share with you now. The reason why I said, look, when you ask you my number one advice, understanding UFOs, go hug your kid and go hug your family because that's where it starts. That's where it starts. It doesn't start reading a book. It doesn't start with having a conversation or podcast. It starts here. It starts here right now, reaching out and understanding who you are as an individual and what you are and what is meaningful in life. That's where that journey begins. It doesn't start out there. It starts here, right here. That's how you have to make that journey. The very first step to understanding out there is first understanding right here and what's here. And this is why I said what I did without going into a lot of detail earlier because it sounds kind of, I know, a little mushy, but I mean it. And Sean will tell you, how many times have we over the years had this conversation? There's no shortcut. You can't just all of a sudden have a shortcut and boom, now I understand the secrets of the universe. You first have to try to understand the secrets of yourself that you've been keeping hidden from yourself and others. And only then, when you understand that, will you be able to even begin to ask the right questions to understand what lies beyond. They're going to say, oh, I thought you were about science and nuts and bolts and evidence and all this, that, and the other. And it's like, but hold on a minute. I can tell you're not even here right now. You're not even present in the conversation. I don't mean you. I mean, this hypothetical person we're talking to. I'm like, bro, you're either lost in the future or the past at every moment, either in fear of something that hasn't occurred or in regret of something that happened before and trying to figure out how not to go through that pain again and try to avoid it. And you're just on the treadmill and you're going. I'm not there anymore. You know? And it gives a different perspective and it gives an idea of some of the larger ideas behind UAP, a completely different vantage point. And I think one way to, I know we're getting near the end of our conversation, but we do, some people ask me, I say this phrase and people go, what's that mean? And I'm like, it means what the two words mean. We put them together, so we figure it out. But consensus reality is the reality that we're all sharing our language, our monetary systems, our decoration, the shapes of our houses and our cars. Those are all consensus reality. We decided those things look like that and we're gonna keep them looking like that and things are gonna look like this and we're gonna talk this way and we're gonna do these things. That could be flipped upside down tomorrow and the human animal would still survive. It could all be removed and the human animal would develop a new way of communicating and a new consensus reality. And that consensus reality at some point in our past was about animalistic spirits and our connection to nature. And now it's very techno-based and very, very, very self-aware and introspective. Everyone's a guru now. Everyone's a technological, you know, maniac. They have all the, excuse me, that's a lousy word. Everyone is an engineer and they have all of these devices in their hands that can collect all of this data. Now everyone meditates. The world 1,000 years ago would not recognize this now. They would think we were all super people. And we all sit around still laughing with each other because our kids can't balance a checkbook. And this is a large reality. Especially in this field, we peel off pieces of it that are way bigger than we think they are. And we say, I'm gonna try to slap a binary answer on this right now, right here, and then we can go chill out. It's not that easy. Your life lasts as long as your life does. Your journey lasts as long as your journey does. And that may not be a nuts and bolts answer some people want, but if you don't know who the hell you are, stop asking me who the hell they are. Thank you both for coming out and for spending so much time with me and the 3,000 other people who are watching. It's an honor, man. I know we went all over the place and I love that we got, look, when we talked beforehand, I told you whatever it is, we'll get through it. And it's not that we were anticipating conflict, but it was, we knew that there had been some, there's been some static in the past and we weren't gonna let you down because we weren't gonna give easy answers. You know what I mean? We were gonna give you the real folks. That's what we talked about coming out doing today, letting our hair down, being real. So I appreciate you, keep doing this. But we all have to learn from the conversation we just had. Thanks, man. Yeah, Curt, I agree. Thank you, always honor and privilege to be here. Thank you for humility. Thank you for your honesty. You know, we all suffer privately sometimes with these demons and it's called humanity, man. This is the situation we're in. Let's just recognize and try to help each other out of the ditch, right? Whenever one of us falls into the ditch, don't throw stones. Try to help the person out. Come on out here. Let me give you a helping hand, you know? And I think that's part of the lesson of the journey. And, you know, I know you probably wanna spend the last hour talking about UFOs, but in reality, you know, time has probably come for us to have an honest conversation about ourselves, you know, in order to continue that conversation about UFOs. And I wanna applaud you for doing this. I'm not sure we've really had a chance to ever do this before on any type of podcast. And I wanna thank your audience for those out there that are truly interested and have been patient with us. Thank you so much. Thank you for letting us kind of go off on a bit of a tangent, if you will, or a detour. But I think it's helpful for the conversation. So we all understand where we're coming from. We all understand each other a little bit better. And then maybe we get better at sharing ideas, you know, with each other instead of, you know, sharing insults. Okay, I'll speak for another couple minutes and answer any audience questions. I see Todd Trowbridge, he had a comment which said, thanks Curt, Lue, and Sean, appreciate your time